Working Like Dogs

Steve Morris from the Government Accountability Office (GAO) visits with Marcie and Fenway about his office’s recent report focusing on the working conditions of Uncle Sam’s working dogs. Dozens of federal agencies employ working dogs to fulfill their missions, including Homeland Security and the Department of State. Dogs are deployed throughout the U.S. and abroad. Keeping these dogs healthy and ensuring their quality of life is paramount and this recent report suggests that federal agencies need to do a better job addressing the health and welfare of their working dogs.

Listen to Episode #190 Now:

BIO:

Steve Morris is a Director in GAO's Natural Resource and Environment team. He directs work related to agriculture and food safety. His work examines federal efforts to ensure the safety of the nation's food supply, help farmers manage agricultural risks, and address the interaction of people, agriculture, and the environment and mitigate potential impacts. His work touches several federal agencies within the departments of Agriculture, Health and Human Services, Homeland Security, and the Interior; the Environmental Protection Agency; as well as smaller independent agencies.

Steve began his career at GAO in 1990. Prior to joining our Natural Resources and Environment team, he examined the Department of Homeland Security's efforts to secure the nation's transportation system. His work helped to shape legislation and public policy in several key areas of aviation security, most notably in air cargo. Steve also has made contributions to GAO by fostering and leveraging diversity and inclusiveness throughout all levels of the organization.

Before joining GAO, Steve worked with the Ford Foundation researching ethnic group interactions in Miami's construction industry. Steve earned a bachelor's degree in sociology and anthropology, and a master's degree in international studies from Florida International University.

Steve works in GAO's Atlanta Field Office.

Transcript:

00:00:03.920 --> 00:00:05.040
Announcer: Let's talk pets!

00:00:22.386 --> 00:00:26.506
Marcie Davis: Hello, and welcome to Working Like Dogs on Pet Life Radio.

00:00:26.826 --> 00:00:28.226
Marcie Davis: Thank you for joining us.

00:00:28.266 --> 00:00:29.186
Marcie Davis: We're your hosts.

00:00:29.286 --> 00:00:35.466
Marcie Davis: My name is Marcie Davis, and my co-host is my amazing Service Dog, Fenway.

00:00:36.386 --> 00:00:42.606
Marcie Davis: And we're thrilled to be with you today to talk about our favorite subject, Working Dogs and Working Animals.

00:00:43.106 --> 00:00:47.106
Marcie Davis: And today, we are welcoming Steve Morris to the show.

00:00:47.706 --> 00:00:56.526
Marcie Davis: And Steve is a Director in the United States Government Accountability Office's Natural Resource and Environment Team.

00:00:57.046 --> 00:01:01.746
Marcie Davis: And Steve, he directs work related to agriculture and food safety.

00:01:02.246 --> 00:01:11.826
Marcie Davis: And we're going to visit with him today about some articles and reports that have been released regarding the number of dogs who actually have government jobs.

00:01:12.306 --> 00:01:19.486
Marcie Davis: And also how federal agencies are addressing these dogs on health and welfare.

00:01:20.186 --> 00:01:26.186
Marcie Davis: So come right back after these quick messages as we welcome Steve Morris to the show.

00:01:28.186 --> 00:01:30.126
Announcer: Take a bite out of your competition.

00:01:30.706 --> 00:01:35.146
Announcer: Advertise your business with an ad in PetLife Radio podcasts and radio shows.

00:01:35.466 --> 00:01:42.386
Announcer: There is no other pet related media that is as large and reaches more pet parents and pet lovers than PetLife Radio.

00:01:42.666 --> 00:01:58.866
Announcer: With over 7 million monthly listeners, PetLife Radio podcasts are available on all major podcast platforms and our live radio stream goes out to over 250 million subscribers on iHeartRadio, Audacy, TuneIn and other streaming apps.

00:01:59.006 --> 00:02:08.046
Announcer: For more information on how you can advertise on the number one pet podcast and radio network, visit petliferadio.com/advertise today.

00:02:10.146 --> 00:02:13.366
Announcer: Let's talk pets on petliferadio.com on petliferadio.com.

00:02:22.840 --> 00:02:26.200
Marcie Davis: Welcome back to Working Like Dogs on Pe tLife Radio.

00:02:26.520 --> 00:02:28.240
Marcie Davis: Hello, Steve, and welcome.

00:02:28.980 --> 00:02:30.700
Steve Morris: Hi, Marcie, thanks for having me today.

00:02:30.820 --> 00:02:32.360
Marcie Davis: Yeah, well, we're so excited.

00:02:32.380 --> 00:02:40.320
Marcie Davis: I've been seeing all these reports coming out, and just so excited to talk with you about the work that you and your office have been doing.

00:02:40.640 --> 00:02:44.620
Marcie Davis: So first of all, Steve, tell us, how many dogs have government jobs?

00:02:44.740 --> 00:02:46.020
Steve Morris: Well, that's a great question.

00:02:46.120 --> 00:02:48.740
Steve Morris: There's a lot of dogs working for the government, Marcie.

00:02:48.800 --> 00:02:52.620
Steve Morris: There's probably about just over 5,100 or so.

00:02:53.020 --> 00:02:53.780
Marcie Davis: Wow.

00:02:54.200 --> 00:02:54.680
Marcie Davis: Wow.

00:02:54.700 --> 00:02:57.120
Marcie Davis: And what kind of jobs are they doing, Steve?

00:02:57.260 --> 00:02:59.360
Steve Morris: Well, they're doing a lot of jobs, Marcie.

00:02:59.380 --> 00:03:06.160
Steve Morris: I mean, most of them are working in detecting explosive and narcotics, but they have other roles as well.

00:03:06.480 --> 00:03:08.180
Steve Morris: Some of them are used for patrols.

00:03:08.200 --> 00:03:14.780
Steve Morris: Some of them are used by the Department of Agriculture to sniff out products that might be harmful to our agricultural products.

00:03:14.980 --> 00:03:15.620
Marcie Davis: Yeah.

00:03:16.040 --> 00:03:19.920
Marcie Davis: Well, and are there other animals besides dogs that are employed?

00:03:20.200 --> 00:03:22.920
Steve Morris: Well, we just looked at working dogs, Marcie.

00:03:23.080 --> 00:03:23.460
Marcie Davis: Okay.

00:03:23.620 --> 00:03:24.220
Marcie Davis: Good.

00:03:24.420 --> 00:03:31.940
Marcie Davis: Well, I know that there used to be a lot of research animals, and that has been changing over the years as we've become more humane.

00:03:31.960 --> 00:03:34.700
Marcie Davis: So I'm glad that you really focused on dogs.

00:03:34.720 --> 00:03:35.700
Marcie Davis: That's awesome.

00:03:36.080 --> 00:03:38.760
Marcie Davis: Did you look at dogs also that do contract work?

00:03:39.220 --> 00:03:40.000
Steve Morris: Yeah, we did.

00:03:40.020 --> 00:03:42.420
Steve Morris: So there's three levels to this, Marcie.

00:03:42.440 --> 00:03:47.660
Steve Morris: So the bulk of it is dogs working directly for federal agencies and their programs.

00:03:47.660 --> 00:03:53.320
Steve Morris: And then there's about 400 plus dogs that are working for contractors, basically.

00:03:53.340 --> 00:03:57.960
Steve Morris: So they're working in concert with the government, but managed under a contract.

00:03:58.120 --> 00:04:01.740
Steve Morris: And then there's also about a thousand dogs that work for the State Department.

00:04:01.760 --> 00:04:07.540
Steve Morris: And these would be dogs that would be provided to foreign governments for their use.

00:04:08.020 --> 00:04:13.340
Marcie Davis: Well, this seems like such a mammoth undertaking if there are over 5,000 dogs.

00:04:13.360 --> 00:04:17.480
Marcie Davis: Well, first of all, how did you decide to even do a report on them, Steve?

00:04:18.040 --> 00:04:19.400
Marcie Davis: What sparked your interest?

00:04:19.540 --> 00:04:20.720
Steve Morris: Absolutely, Marcie.

00:04:20.740 --> 00:04:22.000
Steve Morris: So we worked for the Congress.

00:04:22.020 --> 00:04:27.340
Steve Morris: The Congress asked us to take a look at the use of working dogs throughout the government.

00:04:27.360 --> 00:04:39.560
Steve Morris: And essentially, we looked at the number of dogs, their roles, and also looked at to the extent that these federal agencies and programs had policies in place to ensure their health and welfare.

00:04:39.920 --> 00:04:40.220
Marcie Davis: Yeah.

00:04:40.240 --> 00:04:46.800
Marcie Davis: I have to say, Steve, when I read the report, the federal agencies need to better address health and welfare.

00:04:46.980 --> 00:04:53.260
Marcie Davis: That was sobering to really, because I think of Service Dogs, that's my experience.

00:04:53.280 --> 00:05:00.840
Marcie Davis: So I think of them as these amazing Olympic athletes, and want to make sure that they have the best food, the best vet care, the best everything.

00:05:01.180 --> 00:05:06.540
Marcie Davis: But it was really interesting what you discovered that that's not always the case for these working dogs.

00:05:07.240 --> 00:05:08.620
Steve Morris: Yeah, absolutely, Marcie.

00:05:08.640 --> 00:05:19.560
Steve Morris: And in looking at the government's efforts here, what really struck us early on is that, there's not really a universal standard for the health and welfare of these animals.

00:05:19.780 --> 00:05:24.200
Steve Morris: So what ends up happening is you have a variation out there.

00:05:24.220 --> 00:05:29.480
Steve Morris: So some government programs and agencies may be doing one thing, others may be doing something else.

00:05:29.880 --> 00:05:38.240
Steve Morris: And so what we ended up doing, Marcie, is taking a look at what were pretty much the foundational areas of health and welfare.

00:05:38.500 --> 00:05:42.160
Steve Morris: So we consulted with the agencies, they worked closely with us.

00:05:42.380 --> 00:05:52.100
Steve Morris: We met with some outside experts and associations, like the American Veterinary Medical Association, and came up with this list of 19 areas or issues as we call them.

00:05:52.540 --> 00:06:00.380
Steve Morris: Now these aren't exhaustive, but we think it's a pretty comprehensive list and we think it's really foundational to ensure the health and welfare of these animals.

00:06:00.680 --> 00:06:01.660
Marcie Davis: That's awesome.

00:06:01.940 --> 00:06:05.580
Marcie Davis: Tell us more about those 19 areas that you identified.

00:06:05.780 --> 00:06:06.760
Steve Morris: Yeah, absolutely.

00:06:06.860 --> 00:06:20.720
Steve Morris: So again, in consultation with the agencies and outside experts, we came up with this list of 18 and I'll kind of run through these quickly with you, Marcie, but these things would cover issues like abuse and neglect, right?

00:06:20.740 --> 00:06:24.940
Steve Morris: How do I identify a report, report and investigate those types of things?

00:06:25.280 --> 00:06:27.640
Steve Morris: Issues like emergency medical care, right?

00:06:27.820 --> 00:06:32.260
Steve Morris: Issues related to use in Asia, for example, and what would the policies be surrounding that?

00:06:32.360 --> 00:06:34.500
Steve Morris: The how, when and why kind of situations.

00:06:34.740 --> 00:06:45.460
Steve Morris: Basic care, exercise, food and water, grooming, housing, medical needs, medications, rest, transportation, sanitation, etc.

00:06:45.480 --> 00:06:48.640
Steve Morris: So a very, very comprehensive list of areas.

00:06:49.080 --> 00:06:49.660
Marcie Davis: Yeah.

00:06:49.680 --> 00:06:55.700
Marcie Davis: And those are all the things that we think of as the basic necessities for care and quality of life.

00:06:56.260 --> 00:06:56.920
Steve Morris: Absolutely.

00:06:58.200 --> 00:07:03.340
Marcie Davis: Well, tell us, so who's going to implement these standards?

00:07:03.520 --> 00:07:06.340
Marcie Davis: What's being done to create them and to implement them?

00:07:06.580 --> 00:07:07.740
Steve Morris: Yeah, absolutely, Marcie.

00:07:07.760 --> 00:07:17.140
Steve Morris: So what we ended up doing is, once we identify these areas, we pretty much match that list against the agencies, policies and programs themselves.

00:07:17.160 --> 00:07:19.520
Steve Morris: So we want to identify where are the gaps.

00:07:19.820 --> 00:07:22.360
Steve Morris: And so we did that for a multitude of programs.

00:07:22.520 --> 00:07:27.460
Steve Morris: And we found that a lot of times, some of these programs don't really cover the 18 areas.

00:07:27.480 --> 00:07:32.360
Steve Morris: The good news is some programs did, but the bad news is a lot didn't.

00:07:32.900 --> 00:07:48.040
Steve Morris: So we ended up recommending that all the agencies we identify, that they ensure that in their policies and their contract standards and requirements, that they have something to address each of these areas in their various programs.

00:07:50.100 --> 00:07:53.400
Marcie Davis: And so how will that be enforced, Steve?

00:07:53.720 --> 00:07:55.900
Steve Morris: Again, this is kind of a good news story, Marcie.

00:07:55.920 --> 00:08:01.100
Steve Morris: So we make recommendations specifically to the agencies themselves that have programs.

00:08:01.620 --> 00:08:10.220
Steve Morris: And the good news is that they all essentially agreed that this is a good recommendation, and they've identified various steps they're taking to address it.

00:08:10.240 --> 00:08:16.360
Steve Morris: And some of the agencies are, in fact, you know, pretty far along in terms of implementing the recommendation we made.

00:08:16.720 --> 00:08:24.640
Steve Morris: The other good news here is that Congress actually picked up on the recommendation we made, and they want to institutionalize it in law.

00:08:24.660 --> 00:08:33.860
Steve Morris: So at this point, there's some drafted legislation that basically instructs the federal government to implement the recommendation we made.

00:08:33.880 --> 00:08:39.680
Steve Morris: And there's been some legislation in the House that's passed, and it's a waiting action in the Senate.

00:08:39.700 --> 00:08:42.360
Steve Morris: So again, really good news on that front.

00:08:42.760 --> 00:08:44.020
Marcie Davis: That is good news.

00:08:44.360 --> 00:08:51.260
Marcie Davis: And can you tell us who in Congress is leading this effort and being our champions for working dogs?

00:08:51.540 --> 00:08:58.460
Steve Morris: Yeah, well, there's several, but just on the Senate side, so there was an introduction from Senator Sinema from Arizona.

00:08:58.700 --> 00:09:00.400
Steve Morris: So she's leading the charge in the Senate.

00:09:01.300 --> 00:09:03.540
Marcie Davis: And she's not running for re-election, right?

00:09:03.980 --> 00:09:06.680
Steve Morris: I believe that she is not running for re-election, correct?

00:09:07.220 --> 00:09:11.560
Marcie Davis: So do you think it'll pass before her term is up?

00:09:12.020 --> 00:09:15.240
Steve Morris: We'll have to see, Marcie.

00:09:15.260 --> 00:09:22.120
Steve Morris: But there's other champions that are interested in sponsoring the legislation itself.

00:09:22.680 --> 00:09:24.600
Steve Morris: So I think this has a lot of traction.

00:09:24.620 --> 00:09:27.380
Steve Morris: I would say no pun intended, but I think this has legs.

00:09:28.800 --> 00:09:29.980
Marcie Davis: Hope it has four legs.

00:09:30.020 --> 00:09:30.620
Marcie Davis: Yeah.

00:09:31.080 --> 00:09:31.540
Marcie Davis: Yeah.

00:09:31.560 --> 00:09:32.580
Marcie Davis: No, that's so important.

00:09:32.600 --> 00:09:40.040
Marcie Davis: I know when the politics gets into it, and sometimes when they're the best of intentions, all of those factors come into play.

00:09:41.020 --> 00:09:43.880
Marcie Davis: So I'm curious, who are some of the other champions?

00:09:43.900 --> 00:09:44.660
Marcie Davis: Do you know, Steve?

00:09:44.960 --> 00:09:45.180
Marcie Davis: Yeah.

00:09:45.200 --> 00:09:47.040
Steve Morris: I don't have them off hand, Marcie.

00:09:47.060 --> 00:09:56.260
Steve Morris: But I guess the point here is regardless of whether legislation is passed, the agencies are accountable for implementing the recommendations.

00:09:56.280 --> 00:09:59.200
Steve Morris: So it's not like we make a recommendation and they're off the hook.

00:10:00.120 --> 00:10:02.900
Steve Morris: They have to address it in some form or fashion.

00:10:03.020 --> 00:10:10.660
Steve Morris: And again, going back to the good news is, when they saw the recommendations for the first time and responded to the report, they basically concurred.

00:10:10.680 --> 00:10:12.600
Steve Morris: Yes, we agree this is important.

00:10:13.100 --> 00:10:13.820
Marcie Davis: That's great.

00:10:13.960 --> 00:10:15.740
Steve Morris: They are on the hook to do something.

00:10:15.860 --> 00:10:16.500
Marcie Davis: That's good.

00:10:16.660 --> 00:10:17.100
Marcie Davis: That's good.

00:10:17.160 --> 00:10:31.980
Marcie Davis: And the reason I ask is because I know our listeners are going to want to be following this legislation to make sure that it does get the support that it needs and gets passed because we're all so passionate about that quality of care for working dogs.

00:10:32.000 --> 00:10:43.720
Marcie Davis: They do so much for us that that's the bare minimum we can do for them is to make sure that they are taken good care of and have all the things that they need in their lifespan.

00:10:44.200 --> 00:10:45.160
Steve Morris: Absolutely, Marcie.

00:10:45.160 --> 00:10:48.340
Steve Morris: That's a great point because there's two parts to this.

00:10:48.580 --> 00:10:56.920
Steve Morris: Just from a humanitarian perspective, we have to ensure that we're treating the animals we use in a very good way.

00:10:56.920 --> 00:10:58.620
Steve Morris: Make sure they have everything they need.

00:10:58.900 --> 00:11:03.680
Steve Morris: But the other part of it is like you mentioned, they perform a lot of important jobs.

00:11:03.760 --> 00:11:08.540
Steve Morris: We want to make sure that those animals are performing at the most optimal level they can.

00:11:08.880 --> 00:11:12.480
Marcie Davis: Exactly, because they're in some of the most stressful situations.

00:11:13.200 --> 00:11:26.800
Marcie Davis: So thinking about that, I've looked at a lot and we've had guests on the show that have talked about stress in working dogs and how to manage it and to make sure that they have a longer working life.

00:11:27.040 --> 00:11:33.520
Marcie Davis: But it does take a lot of coordination and effort and awareness to make sure that that is happening.

00:11:34.760 --> 00:11:35.400
Marcie Davis: Yeah.

00:11:35.700 --> 00:11:41.740
Marcie Davis: Well, we are going to take just a quick break and here's some important messages from our sponsors who we love.

00:11:42.000 --> 00:11:51.460
Marcie Davis: And we'll come right back and continue visiting with Steve and learning more about this important report and information that his office has gathered.

00:11:54.600 --> 00:11:56.300
Marcie Davis: Molly, here's your dinner. Zeus, that's not your food!

00:12:00.840 --> 00:12:02.920
Announcer: Don't let that happen to your precious cat.

00:12:03.100 --> 00:12:06.380
Announcer: Elevate your cat's eating experience with the Cat Tree Tray.

00:12:06.600 --> 00:12:12.000
Announcer: The Cat Tree Tray keeps your cat's food off the floor and conveniently located on the cat tree.

00:12:12.420 --> 00:12:14.420
Announcer: It's the perfect way to eat.

00:12:14.940 --> 00:12:22.360
Announcer: It's a beautiful wrought iron tray that easily attaches to your cat tree and keeps dogs and other critters out of your cat's dish.

00:12:22.720 --> 00:12:24.580
Announcer: A must for multi-pet households.

00:12:24.860 --> 00:12:28.840
Announcer: There's a 6-inch tray for large bowls and a 4-inch tray for smaller bowls.

00:12:29.260 --> 00:12:31.960
Announcer: Purchase your Cat Tree Tray today.

00:12:32.300 --> 00:12:45.840
Announcer: Go right now to www.cattreetray.com That's www.cattreetray.com cattreetray.com Let's Talk Pest.

00:12:46.940 --> 00:12:47.940
Announcer: On PetLife Radio.

00:13:00.277 --> 00:13:04.587
Marcie Davis: petliferadio.com Welcome back to Working Like Dogs on PetLife Radio.

00:13:04.907 --> 00:13:14.447
Marcie Davis: We're visiting today with Steve Morris from the United States Government Accountability Office, talking about the wonderful study that he has done.

00:13:14.467 --> 00:13:23.747
Marcie Davis: And Steve, tell us a little bit more about what you have really found from this study, because it's a big study, it's almost 100 pages.

00:13:24.107 --> 00:13:25.907
Marcie Davis: So tell us more what you found.

00:13:26.287 --> 00:13:27.527
Steve Morris: Yeah, Marcie, absolutely.

00:13:27.547 --> 00:13:30.647
Steve Morris: There's a lot of great figures and charts in that report.

00:13:30.867 --> 00:13:42.527
Steve Morris: But I think one of the primary findings, Marcie, was that when we took a look at those 18 areas I mentioned that were important, we bumped that up against what the agencies were themselves doing in their policies.

00:13:42.547 --> 00:13:48.067
Steve Morris: And in some cases, the agencies covered most of those areas, in other cases, they didn't.

00:13:48.087 --> 00:13:53.087
Steve Morris: So some of the program policies addressed all 18 issues, which is great, right?

00:13:53.167 --> 00:13:54.667
Steve Morris: But we found that most don't.

00:13:54.747 --> 00:14:02.247
Steve Morris: And just to give an example, about half of the programs we looked at did not address issues related, for example, to abuse and neglect.

00:14:02.507 --> 00:14:11.667
Steve Morris: About half didn't look at requirements for rest time for the animals, as well as how long the animals should actually be working.

00:14:11.927 --> 00:14:14.247
Steve Morris: So those are pretty glaring examples.

00:14:14.367 --> 00:14:21.187
Steve Morris: And similarly, those programs that were managed by contractors, a lot of them didn't address abuse and neglect either.

00:14:21.207 --> 00:14:26.087
Steve Morris: And they also didn't address important issues like what do you do with these animals when they retire?

00:14:26.487 --> 00:14:32.847
Steve Morris: Or in cases where they get ill, what should be the protocol for any euthanasia decisions, for example?

00:14:32.867 --> 00:14:38.887
Steve Morris: So we thought that these were really important and that's why we made the recommendation that all these areas should be covered.

00:14:39.167 --> 00:14:42.487
Marcie Davis: Yeah, I have to say, Steve, I'm really surprised.

00:14:42.927 --> 00:14:48.147
Marcie Davis: These are all the topics that have been discussed in the Service Dog industry for decades.

00:14:48.547 --> 00:14:59.727
Marcie Davis: And so I'm really surprised that the government didn't have, when I think of the US government, I'm surprised that they didn't have some of those things in contracts already or in agreements.

00:15:00.127 --> 00:15:01.367
Marcie Davis: It's surprising to me.

00:15:01.387 --> 00:15:03.207
Steve Morris: Yeah, exactly, Marcie.

00:15:03.227 --> 00:15:09.847
Steve Morris: And I think part of our job in looking at this was to make sure those things were specified.

00:15:09.867 --> 00:15:17.467
Steve Morris: Because a lot of times you'll find general language and there's almost an implication or assumption that these things are covered when they're not.

00:15:17.727 --> 00:15:20.147
Steve Morris: So we just wanted to make sure that it's spelled out clearly.

00:15:20.167 --> 00:15:21.567
Marcie Davis: I'm so glad.

00:15:21.587 --> 00:15:22.447
Marcie Davis: I am so glad.

00:15:22.467 --> 00:15:28.687
Marcie Davis: These are all such really important topics to make sure that it are being enforced.

00:15:28.987 --> 00:15:36.427
Marcie Davis: Yeah, and that there is accountability for these animals because as you said, they're doing some really important jobs.

00:15:36.967 --> 00:15:41.967
Marcie Davis: Yeah, and I think which department actually has the most working dogs?

00:15:42.047 --> 00:15:43.967
Marcie Davis: Was it the State Department that I read?

00:15:43.987 --> 00:15:48.307
Steve Morris: Yeah, actually it's the Department of Homeland Security and the Department of Agents.

00:15:48.467 --> 00:15:53.807
Steve Morris: Between the two of them, they probably have close to 90% of all the working dogs.

00:15:54.087 --> 00:16:02.727
Steve Morris: And so when you look at a specific agency like the Transportation Security Administration, they have over a thousand dogs working at airports and other venues.

00:16:02.747 --> 00:16:04.647
Steve Morris: So they're the biggest player right now.

00:16:04.927 --> 00:16:11.307
Marcie Davis: Wow, and are they purchasing these dogs from outside training organizations?

00:16:11.727 --> 00:16:12.907
Steve Morris: Yeah, it's a great question.

00:16:13.007 --> 00:16:24.587
Steve Morris: So for example, it varies, Marcie, but for example, like the Department of Defense, they'll get the majority of their dogs, maybe 85-90% of their dogs from breeders in Germany, right?

00:16:24.647 --> 00:16:27.887
Steve Morris: Or in the Netherlands, working dogs from those areas.

00:16:28.427 --> 00:16:33.307
Steve Morris: Other agencies procure their dogs from breeders in the US and Europe.

00:16:33.627 --> 00:16:37.347
Marcie Davis: Yeah, so the government is not breeding and training these dogs.

00:16:37.407 --> 00:16:39.007
Marcie Davis: I guess that's really my question.

00:16:39.227 --> 00:16:40.607
Steve Morris: In some cases, they are.

00:16:41.207 --> 00:16:48.307
Steve Morris: The military at Lackland Air Force Base has a very significant breeding and training.

00:16:48.767 --> 00:16:59.987
Steve Morris: And we were fortunate to visit, I visited that facility years ago, and it's pretty amazing what those dogs go through in terms of training and their kind of relationship with their handlers.

00:17:00.207 --> 00:17:02.447
Marcie Davis: Yeah, yeah, that's a special bond.

00:17:02.627 --> 00:17:06.867
Marcie Davis: Well, and I'm so glad that you've engaged outside agencies and experts.

00:17:07.227 --> 00:17:10.807
Marcie Davis: Like I think you mentioned the American Veterans Medical Association.

00:17:10.927 --> 00:17:11.347
Steve Morris: Yes.

00:17:11.687 --> 00:17:14.287
Marcie Davis: Yeah, who else did you engage?

00:17:14.307 --> 00:17:22.107
Steve Morris: Other industry stakeholders and associations, one that deals with working dogs, police dogs, and there were several others as well.

00:17:22.387 --> 00:17:27.507
Steve Morris: And part of the reason we did that, Marcie, is just to reach as much consensus as possible.

00:17:27.527 --> 00:17:32.127
Steve Morris: Because when you, you know, when you do these types of reviews, a lot of times you get different perspectives.

00:17:32.147 --> 00:17:37.447
Steve Morris: But on this one, we reach pretty good consensus out there in terms of here are the important areas.

00:17:37.467 --> 00:17:41.527
Steve Morris: So when you have that type of buy-in and agreement, it really is beneficial.

00:17:41.827 --> 00:17:43.547
Marcie Davis: Yeah, yeah, that's wonderful.

00:17:43.927 --> 00:17:46.907
Marcie Davis: And did you have them set up as like an advisory group?

00:17:47.447 --> 00:17:50.507
Marcie Davis: Or was it just individuals that you reached out to?

00:17:50.827 --> 00:17:59.627
Steve Morris: Yeah, it was more just speaking to, you know, various representatives of these associations, just to kind of make sure that, you know, we want to make sure we weren't off base, right?

00:17:59.647 --> 00:18:04.507
Steve Morris: So we want to get, you know, different people's perspectives on these things.

00:18:04.527 --> 00:18:07.147
Steve Morris: And again, the great news was that there was consensus.

00:18:07.627 --> 00:18:08.587
Marcie Davis: Yeah, that's great.

00:18:08.947 --> 00:18:12.027
Marcie Davis: It's always so beneficial to engage stakeholders.

00:18:12.267 --> 00:18:16.927
Marcie Davis: Yeah, and to get their support as you're doing this, because this was a big undertaking.

00:18:17.327 --> 00:18:18.827
Marcie Davis: How long did it take you to do it?

00:18:19.087 --> 00:18:20.467
Steve Morris: Yeah, this was a big report.

00:18:20.487 --> 00:18:23.547
Steve Morris: I mean, it took close to two years from beginning to end.

00:18:23.667 --> 00:18:32.027
Steve Morris: But again, we covered, I think it was 40 plus programs across the government, various numbers of contracted programs as well.

00:18:32.047 --> 00:18:35.567
Steve Morris: So, I mean, it was a comprehensive look throughout the entire government.

00:18:36.207 --> 00:18:36.667
Marcie Davis: Yeah.

00:18:36.987 --> 00:18:39.907
Marcie Davis: Well, that's impressive that you were able to do it in two years.

00:18:39.927 --> 00:18:45.927
Marcie Davis: That's pretty fast considering all the information that you had to gather that hadn't been gathered before.

00:18:46.307 --> 00:18:46.947
Steve Morris: Absolutely.

00:18:47.027 --> 00:18:53.127
Steve Morris: This was, I think, really the first time anyone really took a wide lens look at this issue, Marcie.

00:18:53.547 --> 00:18:56.447
Marcie Davis: And do you have any follow-up studies planned?

00:18:56.727 --> 00:19:04.747
Steve Morris: We don't have any specific studies planned, but what we do is one of the important things I think we do is follow up on the recommendations.

00:19:05.087 --> 00:19:13.527
Steve Morris: So we'll basically reach out to the agencies that we directed the recommendations to and just get progress reports in terms of how they're doing.

00:19:14.327 --> 00:19:22.727
Marcie Davis: Is that what the plan is for enforcement or is there another government agency that will take on that responsibility, maybe as part of the law?

00:19:22.747 --> 00:19:24.607
Steve Morris: No, it's essentially us.

00:19:24.727 --> 00:19:33.347
Steve Morris: You know, we go back, once we make the recommendations, we periodically take a look to see, you know, how the agencies are doing and just track progress that way.

00:19:33.707 --> 00:19:40.687
Marcie Davis: Were the recommendations, those 18 areas that you listed, were there more recommendations besides those?

00:19:41.007 --> 00:19:44.027
Steve Morris: That was kind of the umbrella recommendation, Marcie.

00:19:44.047 --> 00:19:54.867
Steve Morris: So it was essentially anyone with a working dog program needs to look at these 18 areas and make sure that it's in their policies and requirements and standards.

00:19:55.127 --> 00:20:02.187
Marcie Davis: And do you foresee that agencies will add additional working dogs and is there a process for that?

00:20:02.787 --> 00:20:11.747
Marcie Davis: If there's somebody that, for example, with facility dogs that are becoming so prevalent in different areas or other new dogs?

00:20:11.767 --> 00:20:16.347
Marcie Davis: I'm always amazed that I feel like it's the tip of the iceberg as to how dogs can help us.

00:20:16.827 --> 00:20:22.227
Marcie Davis: So if they want to add new working dog programs, is there a process for that, Steve?

00:20:22.407 --> 00:20:24.047
Steve Morris: Yeah, that's a great question, Marcie.

00:20:24.067 --> 00:20:28.667
Steve Morris: And again, the good news here is our recommendation covers existing and new programs.

00:20:28.687 --> 00:20:35.847
Steve Morris: So if the government plans on adding any additional working dog programs, this recommendation would apply to that as well.

00:20:36.167 --> 00:20:36.967
Marcie Davis: That's perfect.

00:20:37.127 --> 00:20:38.267
Marcie Davis: Yeah, that's great.

00:20:38.747 --> 00:20:44.587
Marcie Davis: Like I said, because I can only imagine in the future what other working dogs can be added as government employees.

00:20:44.987 --> 00:20:47.607
Marcie Davis: And maybe you'll have more than over 5,000.

00:20:48.047 --> 00:20:48.727
Steve Morris: Absolutely.

00:20:50.307 --> 00:21:02.527
Marcie Davis: Well, and when you mentioned the retirement practices, is there anything that you saw in the study about, because I get this question all the time from our listeners, they want to adopt a dog that's going to be retired.

00:21:02.887 --> 00:21:11.987
Marcie Davis: Is that something that the government considers as a possibility, or if the handler doesn't or isn't able to adopt the retiring dog?

00:21:12.507 --> 00:21:14.187
Steve Morris: Yeah, Marcie, that's a great question.

00:21:14.207 --> 00:21:15.587
Steve Morris: You know, we did take a look at that.

00:21:15.607 --> 00:21:19.647
Steve Morris: And again, the policy varies depending on which program.

00:21:19.667 --> 00:21:26.027
Steve Morris: But, you know, in some cases, handlers can adopt their dogs when they retire, which is a great thing.

00:21:26.307 --> 00:21:33.647
Steve Morris: In other cases, they're put up for adoption, and the public can, you know, submit their applications to adopt these animals.

00:21:34.087 --> 00:21:42.327
Steve Morris: The one thing we did see is that it's very important that the person adopting the animal and the dog is a proper match, right?

00:21:43.207 --> 00:21:52.867
Steve Morris: You know, you don't want necessarily a dog trained in patrol and biting and that sort of thing to be adopted by a family with young children necessarily, right?

00:21:52.887 --> 00:21:55.947
Steve Morris: So you just want to make sure that the match is a good fit.

00:21:56.547 --> 00:21:57.687
Marcie Davis: Right, for both of them.

00:21:57.927 --> 00:22:00.587
Steve Morris: For both of them, exactly, exactly.

00:22:00.607 --> 00:22:06.227
Steve Morris: And so, you know, we had some examples, we had, we identified some examples where maybe that match wasn't a perfect fit.

00:22:06.247 --> 00:22:10.647
Steve Morris: So again, these policies would ensure that things like that are taken care of.

00:22:11.087 --> 00:22:11.907
Marcie Davis: Oh, that's great.

00:22:12.427 --> 00:22:16.367
Marcie Davis: Yeah, yeah, because these dogs have had full lives.

00:22:16.627 --> 00:22:16.947
Marcie Davis: Yep.

00:22:16.987 --> 00:22:20.187
Marcie Davis: And they've had lots of experiences, both good and bad.

00:22:20.187 --> 00:22:29.707
Marcie Davis: So absolutely, the retirement pieces is so important as we look at their, the rest of their life and honor that and honor their life.

00:22:29.727 --> 00:22:31.507
Marcie Davis: So I'm so glad that you're doing that.

00:22:31.527 --> 00:22:36.687
Marcie Davis: I'm so glad that you did the study and that you gathered all of this wonderful information.

00:22:36.907 --> 00:22:48.367
Marcie Davis: And I want to ask you, Steve, before you leave us, because I know you're so busy, how can our listeners get more information about the study and about government, working dogs and just your office in general?

00:22:48.647 --> 00:22:49.487
Steve Morris: Yeah, absolutely.

00:22:49.507 --> 00:22:58.287
Steve Morris: I mean, the first thing is just go to the GAO website, and you'll find a plethora of information about who we are and what we do and a link to the report.

00:22:58.307 --> 00:23:00.927
Steve Morris: And from that, there's additional information as well.

00:23:00.947 --> 00:23:03.747
Steve Morris: So I think that would be the first starting point, Marcie.

00:23:04.127 --> 00:23:04.967
Marcie Davis: Okay, awesome.

00:23:05.267 --> 00:23:09.147
Marcie Davis: And we will put that on our page so that our listeners can access it.

00:23:09.447 --> 00:23:12.567
Marcie Davis: Are you on social media, Steve, your office?

00:23:12.867 --> 00:23:16.807
Steve Morris: Yes, we're on Twitter and YouTube and a couple others.

00:23:16.827 --> 00:23:19.247
Steve Morris: So we can be reached in that way as well.

00:23:19.747 --> 00:23:20.807
Marcie Davis: Okay, awesome.

00:23:21.187 --> 00:23:26.067
Marcie Davis: Well, Steve, thank you so much for the incredible work that you did on this study.

00:23:26.087 --> 00:23:34.827
Marcie Davis: Like I said, two years, it's really impressive that you were able to gather all of this information and put it into such an informative report.

00:23:35.367 --> 00:23:36.547
Marcie Davis: It's really impressive.

00:23:36.627 --> 00:23:37.347
Marcie Davis: Thank you.

00:23:37.667 --> 00:23:38.627
Steve Morris: Well, thank you, Marcie.

00:23:38.627 --> 00:23:40.167
Steve Morris: It was great talking to you today.

00:23:40.607 --> 00:23:41.527
Marcie Davis: You too.

00:23:41.787 --> 00:23:44.607
Marcie Davis: And you'll have to come back and keep us posted in the future.

00:23:45.107 --> 00:23:50.187
Marcie Davis: And especially if you guys do other reports and as your Working Dog team grows.

00:23:50.587 --> 00:23:51.547
Steve Morris: Absolutely.

00:23:51.567 --> 00:23:52.167
Steve Morris: We'd love to.

00:23:52.507 --> 00:23:53.567
Marcie Davis: Thank you so much.

00:23:53.587 --> 00:23:55.587
Marcie Davis: And thank you for being with us today.

00:23:55.987 --> 00:23:57.587
Marcie Davis: We'd love for you to join us.

00:23:57.947 --> 00:24:00.267
Marcie Davis: And you know that we love hearing from you.

00:24:00.627 --> 00:24:03.047
Marcie Davis: So please keep your emails coming.

00:24:03.487 --> 00:24:10.807
Marcie Davis: And you know that you can reach me at marcie, M-A-R-C-I-E at petliferadio.com.

00:24:11.287 --> 00:24:13.447
Marcie Davis: Thanks so much and take good care.

00:24:14.107 --> 00:24:15.167
Announcer: Let's Talk Pets.

00:24:15.547 --> 00:24:17.027
Announcer: Every week on demand.

00:24:17.527 --> 00:24:20.167
Announcer: Only on PetLifeRadio.com