Nine Lives with Dr. Kat

Did your cat miss the memo about using the litter box?  Are they using the floor… the rug… your bed?  Today board-certified veterinary behaviorist, Dr. Maggie O’Brian joins us to discuss reasons they might not be using the box, cat litter preference, and options for your cat to make using the litter box more desirable for them.

Listen to Episode #137 Now:

BIO:

Hailing from Cincinnati, Ohio, Dr. Maggie O’Brian earned her bachelor’s degree in animal nutrition from Ohio State University and then continued her educational journey, achieving her veterinary degree from the Ohio State University College of Veterinary Medicine in 2017.

After graduation, Dr. O’Brian spent one year in an emergency and primary care practice, gaining valuable experience. Her passion for helping animals and understanding their behavior led her to pursue an intensive 3-year residency program in Behavioral Medicine at Ohio State College of Veterinary Medicine, which she successfully completed in 2021. It was in October of that year that Dr. O’Brian proudly became a Diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Behaviorist.

Beyond her professional achievements, Dr. O’Brian’s heart is at home in Charlotte, North Carolina, where she resides with her husband, Colin, their adorable young son, Walter, and their naughty but sweet Beagle mix, Mashed Potatoes

Transcript:

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Announcer: This is Pet Life Radio.

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Announcer: Let's talk pets.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: Hey there, cat lovers, welcome to Nine Lives with Dr.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: Kat.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: I'm your host, Dr.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: Kathryn Primm, and I'm a small animal veterinarian.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: Today, I wanna talk about something that's incredibly important, but sometimes overlooked.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: Our cat's litter box use and some of the ways that we can affect their choices through litter preferences.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: I have with me Dr.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: Maggie O'Brian.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: She is a board certified veterinary behaviorist, and we're going to pick her brain about how to keep it in the box.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: We'll be right back.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: Hey there, cat lovers.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: It's Dr.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: Kat from Nine Lives with Dr.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: Kat.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: You know the expression, cats have nine lives.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: Well, what if you can give them one more?

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: The Give Them Ten movement is on a mission to help give cats an extra life.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: How?

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: With spay and neuter.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: Spaying or neutering your cat helps them live a longer, healthier life, and it helps control free-roaming cat populations, too.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: Learn more about the benefits of spay and neuter, and meet scooter, the neutered cat, at givethemten.org.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: That's give them T-E-N dot org.

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Announcer: Let's Talk Pets on petliferadio.com.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: Welcome back to Nine Lives with Dr.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: Kat on Pet Life Radio.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: I have Dr.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: Maggie O'Brian with me today.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: Good morning, how are you?

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: I'm good, thank you so much for having me.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: Well, I'm excited to talk with you about this because it doesn't seem on the surface like a very big deal, but when things are going wrong with litter box use, it becomes a very big deal.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: So I would like to kind of jump into that.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: And I also want to learn a little bit about you.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: Yes, absolutely, and you're correct.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: Inappropriate elimination or not using the box is the most common behavior problem we see in cats.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: So it's definitely a very common issue that our pet parents deal with.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: And then, yeah, my name is Dr.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: Maggie O'Brian.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: I am a board certified veterinary behaviorist.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: So I live in Charlotte, North Carolina with my family.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: And then we do see patients locally here.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: And then I have a virtual service where we get to work with pet parents across the country to help address any behavior concerns that they have for their dogs and cats.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: OK, that is great.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: So as I mentioned, litter box use, and you mentioned, can become a really big issue.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: And I personally hear a lot of kind of desperate cat guardians talking about how important it is to keep it in the box.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: So can we talk a little bit about what someone might do?

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: One of my listeners maybe is out there that has just noticed that their cat has not been using the box appropriately.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: What are the steps that you would recommend?

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: Yeah, so there can be multiple reasons cats will start not using the litter box.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: So we kind of think of it broadly as a behavior concern versus a medical concern.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: And of course, there can be overlap between the two of those and make them even more confusing.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: But the first step is always to take your cat into your primary care veterinarian to make sure there's no medical reason that they're not having accidents outside the box.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: So they can have arthritis or constipation or things like that, that may actually lead to defecating outside the box.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: And then they can have urinary issues like UTIs or kidney disease that might lead them to urinate outside the box.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: And so the first step would be to get a medical workup and make sure there's nothing going on there.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: Right.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: Well, so would you say that the average cat with no medical issues would choose to be clean, would choose to stay in the box, or can it be just a choice?

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: So typically, cats are going to develop a preference during kittenhood to utilize a box versus not utilizing a box.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: And that's what makes them such great companion animals.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: You know, if the majority didn't want to use the box, then they would very likely not live in our houses to the extent that they do.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: So there is typically in a normal cat a preference to use a box and stay clean and have that preferred area to go to the bathroom.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: And so when we see them, it's because they are kind of a different from the norm and they're not no longer using that box.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: So I hear a lot from my clients, some ideas that maybe the cat is doing those things out of spite or because he or she is mad.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: And I kind of try to counter that thought.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: Can you sort of touch on that a little bit?

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: Yes, that is also something we hear very, very commonly, which is understandable.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: It's a very, very frustrating behavior for people.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: And many times we can see cats not use the box secondary to some sort of stress, like the owner being out of town or guests being over or a new baby.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: And so as humans, it's easy for us to put our feelings on our cat and say, well, they're mad about the new baby and so they're peeing everywhere.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: But really, we think about those issues as being secondary to stress, and that can be a cat's way of dealing with stress, as unfortunate as it is for us in our homes.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: So how can my listeners, maybe some of my listeners have a new kitten or a cat that has never done this before.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: Are there ways that they can sort of set the cat up for success to create a good litter box routine?

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: Yes, so if we've ruled out medical concerns and we feel like this is more of a, what we would call inappropriate toileting issue.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: So when you look at behavior concerns for inappropriate elimination, you look at urinary marking, which is its own little problem.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: Urinary marking is not as commonly linked to what is going on with the actual box.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: But the other main behavioral concern we see with cats that go outside the box is actually what we call inappropriate toileting.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: Which means that they're not using the box either because they prefer a different area, or there's something about the box, the location, the litter, that they do not prefer, and so they're avoiding that area.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: And so we'll see those either preferences or aversions leading to some cats not using the box.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: So when we generally try to set them up for success, a typical rule of thumb would be a very large box.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: So you always want to get the extra large litter boxes, or even an under-the-bed storage container.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: Typically getting clay litter is going to be the most common preferred substrate that we see.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: And then you want it to be in a quiet area with low traffic.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: You don't want it to be where the dog is constantly barking out the window, or where the dryer goes off loudly all the time.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: So those are some of the baseline recommendations we'll give.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: And then cleaning it daily is also very important.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: So we definitely want to be scooping at least once a day.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: So you said something that is really interesting to me, kind of diverging, but you said that we need to kind of decide the difference between marking versus toileting.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: So can you just, I know it's complicated, but can you give my listeners kind of a quick list to know the difference between those two?

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: Yes, absolutely.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: So urinary marking is more commonly going to be small amounts of urine.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: It's often going to be on vertical surfaces.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: So things like the baseboards or the door near the window, but it's typically gonna be on vertical surfaces.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: Female cats can urinary mark and they can always get the vertical range that our male cats can get.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: So you can see marking horizontally.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: Sometimes in that case, it's gonna be on areas of social significance, like clothing or bedding or things that smell like the owner.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: And again, those are usually very small amounts of urine if we've ruled out medical issues, because there's other reasons for cats to pee in small amounts outside the box.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: And then with inappropriate toileting, you're usually just seeing that cat void their bladder or defecate fully.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: So the purpose is just to go to the bathroom.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: It's not to leave a social message anywhere.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: And then when that happens, it's typically going to be again in an area where they either just prefer to go to the bathroom there or an area that's away from whatever they're concerned about, the current box set up is.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: And so you'll see a larger amount just for the purpose of fully going to the bathroom.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: Those guys are less likely to use the box at all.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: Whereas your urinary markers are more likely to use the box intermittently, but they also take some opportunities to leave their social memo on our walls or clothes.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: Right.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: Thank you.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: That's very, very helpful.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: So I want to take a quick break and come back and talk a little bit more about specific things that Cat Guardians might be able to do to reframe the litter box as a happy place.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: So we'll be right back.

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Announcer: Let's Talk Pest on Petlife Radio.

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Announcer: petliferadio.com.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: welcome back to Nine Lives with Dr.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: Kat on PetLife Radio.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: Dr.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: Maggie O'Brian and I are delving into litter box issues and inappropriate toileting versus marking and what my listeners might be able to do to help head off some of these problems.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: So we were just talking about maybe the toileting thing is a preference versus an aversion.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: So how can we, without asking our cats, since they seldom answer in English, how can we find out what our cats' preferences are?

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: Are there any tests or anything that we can do?

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: Say you can perform your own little in-home experiments with our cats.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: We can offer different options to see if they have a preference for something.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: And so you could offer different types of litter, a covered box, an uncovered box, see if they prefer a quiet area that's way off to the side, or if they enjoy being a little closer to the activity.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: And so those things, you can offer those different options.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: Usually we say don't take away, so if they're not using the box that you want them to use, don't just remove that one and put a new box somewhere else with totally different stuff, but leave the old one and then just start offering other boxes with different substrates and see if they start to use those.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: And then if we feel like we know, okay, this is the litter you like or that's the type of box you like, we can start to replace the other boxes with a similar preference set up.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: So here's the real question that I get a lot.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: Can it be fixed or is it a problem that will never go away?

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: Such a good question.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: So we can definitely help.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: It would be a very sad career choice if we couldn't help with this really, really common problem.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: It is always best to address it as soon as possible.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: Some of the more tricky cases are cats that have been going outside the box for years and have clearly developed a really strong preference for the carpet in the dining room.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: And so those guys can be trickier, not impossible by any means, but trickier.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: So if we are one of those more significant cases or ongoing cases, we'll put them in smaller spaces with the boxes to try to really encourage that use.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: And then once they're starting to use those, we'll continue to expand their access to other areas of the house.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: You can start to put deterrents or things like foil near where they are preferring to go to try to avoid them going there.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: You don't want to cause stress.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: You want it to be something aversive, but something that they just don't want to step on like foil.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: So if it's that aversion or the preference for a different area, it is a little bit of that trial and error to figure out what's going wrong.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: Urinary marking is considered a fairly treatable issue.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: So it's very responsive in the majority of cats to medication, which is really nice.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: It's secondary to stress, and so if you can get that stress level down, lower triggers such as outdoor cats, a lot of times we can make a lot of great headway in those guys.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: Well, that's great news.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: So it sounds like you would say that the key is the observation of the owner and just being willing to commit to try some things and seek some help.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: So that's great.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: So you touched a little bit on types of litter boxes and types of litter.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: If you find something that your cat does like, how quickly do you think you can make that transition and solve this problem?

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: So if we have the cat consistently going in one type of box, and we can start to offer that in multiple places, it's typically not they decide to use the box once and we never have another accident.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: So as long as we feel like we're making gradual progress and we're starting to use the box more and more, maybe with some of these guys, we get accidents here or there.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: But what we really want to avoid, because it's a bond breaker and it's so frustrating understandably for people, is our cats that are having multiple accidents every single day all over the house.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: That can be really challenging for people to live with.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: So that's what we're really trying to get away from.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: And then again, I know it's always a fun answer, but it depends on the case in terms of can we get total resolution versus do we have intermittent accidents here and there?

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: And it's all just a goal of can we get it to a place where the pet parent feels like this is manageable and feasible long-term.

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: So is there any specific cat that you see these issues more likely?

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: Maybe a breed of cat or a type of cat or a gender of cat or a certain personality type of cats?

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Dr. Kathryn Primm: What do you see?

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: So it is such a common issue that I would say we see it in all the different types of cats.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: When we see them in a behavior appointment, many times they do have comorbid issues like anxiety or they're territorial towards other cats outside.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: And so based on the individual, we'll try to address those concerns that we can commonly see.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: So trying to block access to outdoor cats.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: If there's aggression between or conflict between the cats in the house, oftentimes that can lead to secondary issues like not using the box.

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Dr. Maggie O'Brian: So it's typically going to be environmental and what the social structure is.

00:17:18.320 --> 00:17:25.040
Dr. Maggie O'Brian: And then that individual variation is typically going to outweigh any breed specific concerns.

00:17:25.040 --> 00:17:34.540
Dr. Kathryn Primm: So by the time you see these kitties, presumably they would have already seen their general practitioner like me and ruled out some of the medical issues.

00:17:34.540 --> 00:17:41.880
Dr. Kathryn Primm: But you mentioned that sometimes things like osteoarthritis or urinary disease can play a role.

00:17:41.880 --> 00:17:46.300
Dr. Kathryn Primm: And I know that by the time you get them, these have already been handled, but can you touch on those a little bit?

00:17:46.300 --> 00:17:47.060
Dr. Maggie O'Brian: Yeah, absolutely.

00:17:47.060 --> 00:17:48.960
Dr. Maggie O'Brian: And they can be comorbid too.

00:17:48.960 --> 00:17:55.080
Dr. Maggie O'Brian: And it's really tricky if you're dealing with something that is a medical issue that isn't curable per se.

00:17:55.080 --> 00:18:07.400
Dr. Maggie O'Brian: So if they have chronic issues like arthritis, obviously we have great treatment options for now on cats, but it's still an ongoing treatment process that you're never gonna make completely, completely go away.

00:18:07.400 --> 00:18:15.660
Dr. Maggie O'Brian: So when we work with these guys, it is definitely really important to make sure that they're as physically comfortable with arthritis.

00:18:15.660 --> 00:18:21.020
Dr. Maggie O'Brian: You wanna make sure that the box isn't, you know, they don't have to go up a flight of steps to get to the box.

00:18:21.020 --> 00:18:30.340
Dr. Maggie O'Brian: If that just feels like a lot for that cat that day, they might just choose to use a room, you know, adjacent to them, that's often a quiet spot and not do the stairs that day.

00:18:30.340 --> 00:18:34.960
Dr. Maggie O'Brian: Especially if the stairs are wooden and they're slippery or anything like that.

00:18:34.960 --> 00:18:37.660
Dr. Maggie O'Brian: Even the sides of the box can play a role with that.

00:18:37.660 --> 00:18:51.800
Dr. Maggie O'Brian: So some cats aren't gonna wanna jump into the box because they feel more ouchey that day and so addressing those issues can definitely help with making them more likely to use the box, but meeting them both ways.

00:18:51.800 --> 00:19:06.700
Dr. Maggie O'Brian: So it's addressing the primary issue like arthritis, but it will also be making sure we have boxes readily available where they don't have to go far to find them, making sure we have sides cut out of the box if it's got a tall side and you have an arthritic cat.

00:19:06.700 --> 00:19:15.980
Dr. Maggie O'Brian: So making sure we're covering for those issues the best we can on our end from a management standpoint and also an environmental standpoint.

00:19:15.980 --> 00:19:31.760
Dr. Kathryn Primm: So this is a little off-topic maybe, but in your experience, what about the cat boxes that are, I think they're made out of some kind of cardboard or whatever, and you just throw them away or the robotic cat boxes.

00:19:31.760 --> 00:19:36.200
Dr. Kathryn Primm: Are you seeing any help with those kind of new advances?

00:19:36.200 --> 00:19:38.360
Dr. Maggie O'Brian: So it depends a lot on the kitty.

00:19:38.360 --> 00:19:44.460
Dr. Maggie O'Brian: So with the individual preferences, some cats aren't gonna mind those at all, and they're not gonna be any sort of concern.

00:19:44.460 --> 00:19:56.260
Dr. Maggie O'Brian: Definitely, they can lead to easier cleaning, and so they're more convenient, so you're gonna potentially end up with a more frequently clean box, which you're gonna get some cats that prefer that.

00:19:56.260 --> 00:20:12.240
Dr. Maggie O'Brian: It's always good to make sure you're going very much brand name on the auto cleaners, making sure that you find one with a lot of good reviews, and maybe you talk with your primary care about what they recommend, only because you don't wanna get anyone that's gonna malfunction or do anything that's dangerous.

00:20:12.240 --> 00:20:15.680
Dr. Maggie O'Brian: There are gonna be cats that are very scared of the auto cleaner.

00:20:15.680 --> 00:20:26.480
Dr. Maggie O'Brian: So the cats that, if you've seen those old videos where people used to put a cucumber near a cat and it jumped like 10 feet in the air, those cats would likely not be great with the auto cleaner.

00:20:26.480 --> 00:20:34.120
Dr. Maggie O'Brian: So you just wanna be mindful of any potential scary association they might make.

00:20:34.120 --> 00:20:40.400
Dr. Maggie O'Brian: And then again, if you're like, I'm doing the auto cleaners, or I'm doing the cardboard, just don't change all of the boxes to that.

00:20:40.400 --> 00:20:45.260
Dr. Maggie O'Brian: Offer it in one spot, make sure they like it before kind of committing to fully using those.

00:20:45.260 --> 00:20:49.740
Dr. Kathryn Primm: That is really, really good advice because they're really not cheap.

00:20:49.740 --> 00:20:50.880
Dr. Kathryn Primm: So I appreciate that.

00:20:50.880 --> 00:20:51.620
Dr. Maggie O'Brian: Yes, yes, that too.

00:20:51.620 --> 00:20:53.100
Dr. Maggie O'Brian: That'd be a real bummer, yes.

00:20:53.100 --> 00:20:53.900
Dr. Kathryn Primm: Yeah.

00:20:53.900 --> 00:21:00.040
Dr. Kathryn Primm: So I guess to sum up then, you're saying watch your cat, listen to your cat, maybe try some things.

00:21:00.040 --> 00:21:02.980
Dr. Kathryn Primm: Don't forget the relationship though with your general practitioner.

00:21:02.980 --> 00:21:11.040
Dr. Kathryn Primm: I know that I have seen cats that actually had urinary pathology and this was their way of showing that.

00:21:11.040 --> 00:21:16.520
Dr. Kathryn Primm: And if the owner had just googled it and started trying some stuff, we never would have made an impact for that cat.

00:21:16.520 --> 00:21:18.480
Dr. Kathryn Primm: So I really appreciate that.

00:21:18.480 --> 00:21:25.640
Dr. Kathryn Primm: This has been a really enlightening conversation, and I think the practical tips are also very helpful.

00:21:25.640 --> 00:21:33.840
Dr. Kathryn Primm: So I want everyone that's listening though, to remember that if your cat isn't using their box, it's not about them being difficult or angry.

00:21:34.240 --> 00:21:36.720
Dr. Kathryn Primm: It's a sign that they need something different.

00:21:36.720 --> 00:21:38.160
Dr. Kathryn Primm: Can you expand on that?

00:21:38.160 --> 00:21:44.540
Dr. Maggie O'Brian: Yeah, so we don't think of cats generally as being spiteful or trying to get back at us.

00:21:44.540 --> 00:21:56.060
Dr. Maggie O'Brian: They also don't know that, oh my gosh, that piece of clothing was really expensive, and now I'm never gonna get it cleaned up, or that couch, we're gonna have to throw that whole thing away.

00:21:56.060 --> 00:21:59.600
Dr. Maggie O'Brian: They just obviously don't have awareness of that bigger picture.

00:21:59.600 --> 00:22:07.760
Dr. Maggie O'Brian: And so while I know a lot of times it can appear, that way to pet parents, it is in our cats being spiteful.

00:22:07.760 --> 00:22:21.820
Dr. Maggie O'Brian: And unfortunately, what that kind of, what that connotation can lead to, or what that misunderstanding can lead to, is us being really frustrated with our cats, which can then kind of snowball into, we're upset with our cats.

00:22:21.820 --> 00:22:27.700
Dr. Maggie O'Brian: Maybe we speak to them sternly, or try to move them away from wherever the accidents were.

00:22:27.700 --> 00:22:34.960
Dr. Maggie O'Brian: And we can lead to this cycle of the cats, more stressed out now, because we're not interacting with them in a normal, gentle way.

00:22:34.960 --> 00:22:38.420
Dr. Maggie O'Brian: And then that can lead to more accidents and more frustration from us.

00:22:38.420 --> 00:22:54.440
Dr. Maggie O'Brian: So it's good to just remember that we're humans, they're kitties, these things are secondary to medical issues, they're secondary to stress, you know, concerns about outside stressors or inner house concerns as well.

00:22:54.440 --> 00:22:58.820
Dr. Maggie O'Brian: So it's just good to keep that in mind when we're working with them and want to come from an empathetic place.

00:22:59.400 --> 00:23:11.340
Dr. Kathryn Primm: Oh, I'm so glad you mentioned that because I interview people and I do this podcast and I hear about things, but I literally in my practice still hear clients saying that they punished their cat for this behavior.

00:23:11.340 --> 00:23:16.360
Dr. Kathryn Primm: So it is still out there, so I'm glad you highlighted, please don't punish your cat for this behavior.

00:23:16.360 --> 00:23:17.580
Dr. Maggie O'Brian: Yes, it will not help.

00:23:17.580 --> 00:23:19.540
Dr. Kathryn Primm: No, it will make it all worse.

00:23:19.540 --> 00:23:21.220
Dr. Kathryn Primm: So, okay, well, you know what?

00:23:21.220 --> 00:23:32.440
Dr. Kathryn Primm: I really appreciate you taking the time to educate my listeners about a problem that I do see and hear a lot that I think damages the bond between cats and their guardians.

00:23:32.440 --> 00:23:34.240
Dr. Kathryn Primm: So thank you so much.

00:23:34.240 --> 00:23:35.020
Dr. Maggie O'Brian: Yes, absolutely.

00:23:35.020 --> 00:23:36.780
Dr. Maggie O'Brian: Thank you so much for having me.

00:23:36.780 --> 00:23:39.960
Dr. Kathryn Primm: Oh, and also thanks to my listeners for tuning in.

00:23:39.960 --> 00:23:45.620
Dr. Kathryn Primm: If you like this episode, don't forget to subscribe and share it with all your fellow cat lovers.

00:23:45.620 --> 00:23:46.920
Dr. Kathryn Primm: Again, I'm Dr.

00:23:46.920 --> 00:23:47.880
Dr. Kathryn Primm: Kathryn Primm.

00:23:47.880 --> 00:23:49.440
Dr. Kathryn Primm: This is Nine Lives with Dr.

00:23:49.440 --> 00:23:50.000
Dr. Kathryn Primm: Kat.

00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:52.700
Dr. Kathryn Primm: Go out and have a purrfect day.

00:23:53.540 --> 00:23:59.440
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