Let's Talk About Pets

In this episode, we are joined by our special guest professional dog trainer, Ben, with Concerned Canines. We explore the complexities of aggressive dog breeds and the dangers that arise from lack of knowledge, improper training, and irresponsible pet ownership. While some dog breeds are more predisposed to protective or territorial behaviors, aggression can stem from various factors. We examine the importance of responsible ownership and the role of proper training in managing aggressive tendencies. Listen as we react to funny reviews found online of dog training equipment. Stay tuned to the end for our AI-generated song using Suno.com. 

Listen to Episode #9 Now:

Transcript:

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Announcer: This is Pet Life Radio.

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Announcer: Let's talk pets.

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Nessie: Hey, friends, welcome back.

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Nessie: We are here for another episode of Let's Talk About Pets.

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Nessie: I am not just a myth from the sea, I'm also your host, Nessie.

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Echo: I don't have anything fun to say, I'm just Echo.

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Echo: I'll repeat myself if you want an Echo, though.

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Nessie: We have a special guest with us today.

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Nessie: His name is Ben Lee.

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Nessie: He has a business called Concerned Canines, where he specializes in dealing with aggression and anxiety.

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Nessie: He is a professional dog trainer, a member of the Association of Professional Dog Trainers, and Pet Professional Guild.

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Nessie: As of this month, he has been training for 10 years.

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Nessie: Everybody, welcome Ben to the show.

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Echo: Welcome Ben.

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Ben: Hello everybody.

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Ben: How are we doing?

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Echo: Good.

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Nessie: We have an interesting topic today.

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Nessie: It is about dog aggression and whether there is such a thing as aggressive breeds or if all dogs have the potential to be aggressive.

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Nessie: I thought it'd be interesting first to maybe mention a few dog statistics that I found as far as dog bites go.

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Nessie: Do you guys want to hear those?

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Echo: Yeah, let's go.

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Echo: Definitely.

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Nessie: Approximately 334,000 people admitted to US emergency departments annually for dog bite associated injuries.

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Echo: Did you say 300,000?

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Nessie: 334,000.

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Echo: That's insane.

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Ben: That seems low.

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Ben: I feel like it was low.

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Nessie: It was at least a reported one.

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Nessie: That's not including the smaller ones that may happen at home that you don't go seek help for because, like, oh, it didn't break the skin as bad.

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Ben: It's just an index finger.

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Ben: It's not swollen and green yet.

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Ben: I'm un-okay.

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Ben: So it's our...

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Nessie: Clean as bat.

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Ben: It's his bat.

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Nessie: So actually, it's an unknown number of people who have sustained energies and have not seeked help.

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Nessie: The demographics of typical dog bite victims, almost half typically are children under 12 years old, and at least 10% of them are 70 years old or higher.

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Nessie: I did not include the fatality rate.

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Nessie: One other fact is that dog bite costs the insurance an estimated $1 billion in homeowner liability claims a year.

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Ben: Yeah, AD., this is Krustoff, he's my student.

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Ben: Anytime I'm on a camera, he knows what my laptop does, but he thinks he's needed for class.

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Ben: He is.

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Ben: Yeah, that he doesn't understand we're just...

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Ben: No, I feel like those numbers are kind of low, because I mean, again, to kind of give you a little bit of context, we got our border collie in November of 23.

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Ben: My wife, who is a former dog professional, knew better, she was on the bed playing with him.

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Ben: He was in her face, he play bit her nose, and he lacerated her nostril.

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Ben: Yeah, they just glued it back together, but we had to fill out a bite report on an eight week old puppy.

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Ben: And they kept asking us questions, do you feel like the dog is dangerous?

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Ben: And I'm like, I'm a professional dog trainer.

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Ben: It's an eight week old puppy, it's a play bite.

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Ben: And I guess that's probably why I feel like, you get bit once you're not going to report it.

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Echo: So have you guys had a dog bite at any point send you to an ER before?

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Ben: Me personally, not on wood, no.

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Ben: I had a couple that I probably should have seen a doctor for.

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Ben: But none that sent me to the ER.

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Ben: Now my wife, the dog groomer, has that I've never had one on a messy little...

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Nessie: My worst bite was from a cat actually, so not a dog.

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Nessie: And I wound up out of work for a couple of weeks because it got infected the night of.

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Nessie: It was terrible.

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Nessie: I was like, well, the bite doesn't seem bad enough that I don't think I need help.

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Nessie: And by the next day, I couldn't move my arm.

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Nessie: It was so swollen and I had to get antibiotics and all the fun stuff.

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Nessie: So mine was a capsule about you.

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Echo: Yeah, I had to go to the ER once from a treeing feist.

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Echo: Years ago when I was training, and this was just like a general level one adult basics course.

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Echo: And so it was all dogs that I hadn't met before.

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Echo: And this feist had just been adopted the day before.

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Echo: It was an adult, so we didn't know anything about the history.

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Echo: I was putting his harness on at the end of the lesson, and body language seemed relaxed.

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Echo: He seemed fine.

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Echo: I was about to clip it, and he just turned and he grabbed my hand, and put a nice big hole in the webbing in my fingers.

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Echo: It was a wallowing mud, just pouring.

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Echo: It was a lot of fun.

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Echo: I don't know if it's the same in every state, but I was living and working in Michigan at the time.

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Echo: And if you go to the ER for an animal bite, then it has to be reported.

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Echo: So I had to report that person, and she returned to the class, and she was mad that I reported her.

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Echo: And I was like, I did not have a choice.

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Ben: You know, here at Local, yes, you do actually have to report it.

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Ben: Because if you go to the doctor, they ask, do you know the dog that bit you?

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Ben: And I think my wife will have to get a tetanus shot.

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Ben: Because he was only eight weeks old.

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Ben: But if you say, no, I don't know the dog that bit me, they'll put you through a rabies protocol.

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Echo: Yes, wondered about that.

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Ben: And that will hurt.

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Ben: What kind of dog bit you?

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Echo: It was a treying feist.

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Ben: I don't know that breed.

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Nessie: I don't know either.

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Echo: He was from a rescue.

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Echo: So I think it was, I'm gonna say this with air quotes, a treying feist.

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Echo: Because nobody knows what that breed is.

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Echo: That's not one of the most common dogs that would run away and go and procreate accidentally.

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Echo: So I think it was just like, this dog kind of looks like this.

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Ben: It's bred to hunt squirrels, and it's actually, it's bred from terriers.

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Ben: So that tracks.

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Ben: I've heard the name feist before, but I've never seen one.

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Echo: My next door neighbors were breeding mountain feists, I think.

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Echo: So they have a few.

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Nessie: Okay.

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Nessie: Wow.

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Nessie: This feels like we are ranging on some airbender territory here.

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Nessie: The mountain feist, the tree feist, name out water, the water feist in here somewhere, maybe.

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Echo: The water feist, you would know more about that, Nessie.

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Echo: Yeah.

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Ben: I'm particularly fond of the fire feist.

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Nessie: Oh yeah.

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Nessie: I think Charmander when you say that.

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Ben: Well, it's not a dog, it's a Pokemon.

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Nessie: Sounds great.

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Ben: It's the new fire starter for the next generations.

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Nessie: I just wanted to ask you guys what your thoughts on whether or not you believe any dog has the potential to be aggressive in your thoughts on if it's breed specific or not.

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Echo: I'll go first.

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Echo: I do think that it is within the capabilities of anything with teeth to bite, but I don't think that it ever is wise to underestimate the power of fear or stress.

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Echo: I do think that there are certain breeds that are far more prone to it, who have been bred for it and for specific jobs that require aggressive tendencies.

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Echo: On a rare occasion, I have met a very, very aggressive Labrador, a very, very aggressive Golden, which was very confusing.

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Echo: I've met a really nasty English Bulldogs, and they're known to be really nice dogs.

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Ben: I worked with one a couple of years ago, and it was one of those situations where it was just like, we're not going to figure out what is driving this dog's behavior.

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Ben: Every so often, they just went off and hated other dogs.

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Ben: It's kind of like an alligator.

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Ben: It's low to the ground.

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Ben: He gets a lot of traction.

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Ben: If it gets in his mouth, you're not getting it out of his mouth.

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Ben: It's going to be an ugly bite.

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Ben: I mean, because you know what bulldogs are bred for though, right?

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Ben: A bulldog isn't meant to bite.

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Ben: It was a sport called bull-baiting, and it was meant to grab onto the bull's face and go dead weight.

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Ben: But yeah, I mean, a bulldog is a very scary thing when it wakes up and changes violence.

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Ben: Talking about the dogs that are surprising.

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Ben: I was telling Nessie earlier, I got it yesterday by a loss of op.

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Echo: That doesn't surprise me.

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Ben: The dog that started as a dog trainer was actually a toy poodle.

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Ben: Our toy poodle, so that was the joke.

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Ben: Philip, unfortunately, passed away in April of 24.

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Ben: So we got Philip, he was around nine months old, and bit me, bit my wife a couple of times, would frequently bite the vet.

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Ben: You did not mess around with him.

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Ben: I don't know if I ended up answering the question right.

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Ben: So I agree with you completely.

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Ben: I go, yes, if it has a mouth, it'll bite.

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Ben: And if it's a dog, it'll definitely bite.

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Ben: Biting is a function in all canines.

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Ben: It's a very effective function, as we have learned over the years.

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Nessie: Are you of the belief that if it comes from the right type of upbringing, then it won't become aggressive, no matter the breed?

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Echo: Yeah, I'd like to hear your take.

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Ben: Look, you can raise a dog as friendly and as social, and check all your boxes.

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Ben: There is a condition under which that dog will bite.

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Ben: So I like to call it the mystery variable, because you can't predict every variable in training.

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Ben: You can try and say, my dog is going to be in this situation, I'm going to get my dog comfortable with this situation, right?

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Ben: We have the blue angels flying over us all the time.

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Ben: The dogs who came to Playgroup every day, the blue angels breaking the sound barrier over the hospital, did nothing to them.

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Ben: The dogs that were new, they were startled.

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Ben: But I feel like there's always that possibility, because it's never a no, it's just a probability.

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Ben: The probability may be super low.

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Ben: I'll go back to my standard poodle.

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Ben: If you'll ever meet Kristoff in person, he is more social than I want him to be.

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Ben: I don't like being this social with people.

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Ben: Kristoff's never met a stranger.

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Ben: Once he got comfortable and he felt safe, anybody I've introduced him to has been his new best friend.

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Ben: But he was at work with my wife one time while she was a groomer.

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Ben: A lady was getting kind of ugly with her, and he was on her table, I think.

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Ben: And he became so reactive towards this woman yelling at my wife that one of her co-workers had to go put him in a kennel.

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Ben: And he sat there scratching in and going crazy at the kennel, trying to get to my wife.

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Ben: So in that situation, if Kristoff were between that lady and my wife, would he have bitten her?

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Ben: Maybe.

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Ben: But the probability is there.

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Echo: Can I ask you something, Ben?

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Echo: So you work specifically with aggressive dogs, or do you just train, like really anything?

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Ben: I mean, I'll train.

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Ben: When you say anything, I did train our daughter, bearded dragon a little bit.

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Ben: Yeah, I don't do like dog sports, but I will do like basic obedience and everything.

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Ben: But my niche and me in the local environment is aggression and anxiety.

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Echo: When you get specifically the dogs that the families are coming to you because of aggression, how often do you hear people say things like, well, he's not really aggressive, we just had a bad moment, but he's not really a bad dog.

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Echo: Is that common or do people come to you being like, I know my dog's bad help?

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Ben: I would say probably about 30 percent of my clients come to me and they say, look, we've always had this problem, or we thought it would go away.

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Ben: And if you're listening at home, it will not go away if you have a dog that is growling or biting.

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Ben: I don't care if it's an eight week old puppy, go ahead and seek out a professional help.

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Ben: Now, shameless self-promotion, I do online classes.

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Ben: But I would say that most of it is always a surprise.

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Ben: We didn't know he was going to bite.

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Ben: The bite came out of nowhere.

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Ben: I start interacting with the dog, and I'm seeing the microbehaviors.

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Ben: I'm seeing small subtle shifts in the dog's behavior.

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Ben: And I'm going, this is not surprising.

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Ben: This dog was telling you five minutes ago, I'm thinking about biting you.

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Ben: And you just kept pushing, you just kept pushing.

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Ben: And then you probably get that five, 10% of clients who they know what's going to happen.

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Ben: They just keep dealing with it, doing not intelligent stuff.

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Ben: I consulted on a case once where the owner kept putting their face in the dog's face while the dog was sleeping.

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Ben: And this is horrible if you're listening at home.

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Ben: Please do not do this when your dog is sleeping.

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Ben: There is an old adage in the country, less sleeping dogs lie is considered wisdom for a reason.

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Ben: And he was like, well, what do I do to keep my dog from biting me on the face?

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Ben: And I was like, well, this is easy.

00:12:26.742 --> 00:12:29.882
Ben: Don't stick your face in your dog's face while he is sleeping.

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Ben: He goes, well, the dog is just so cute.

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Ben: I did that.

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Ben: Take a picture.

00:12:34.802 --> 00:12:35.742
Ben: Take a picture.

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Echo: Yeah.

00:12:36.542 --> 00:12:40.562
Ben: OK, put it on Facebook or Instagram or TikTok to be like, look how normal my dog is.

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Ben: Heart eyes, heart eyes.

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Ben: This was a big dog, and it was a breed known for being like a biting breed.

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Ben: And the answer was just don't stick your face in his face.

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Echo: I mean, it seems like a simple solution, but sometimes it's amazing what obvious things do not always occur in the moment.

00:12:57.642 --> 00:12:59.762
Ben: Especially when it comes to dogs.

00:12:59.762 --> 00:13:02.962
Ben: And this is something that I've been harping on for a couple of months.

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Ben: I feel like dog culture in general, I feel like we're losing our ability to with dogs, which is ironic because from a biological standpoint, we have been domesticating dogs for at least 20,000 years.

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Ben: There is some evidence that we have been domesticating dogs for up to 40,000 years.

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Ben: And there's even other branches of humanity like meandertals, maybe did some domestication process, maybe they had some like proto wolves.

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Ben: And it's just ironic that it feels like the past 15 years, we have lost our ability to really read and understand dogs.

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Ben: And that's troublesome.

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Ben: I mean, it's not a big deal if you've got a chihuahua, a toy poodle, or you go and find this cute little fluffy thing at the shelter who's 10 pounds.

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Ben: That bite might put you in the hospital for a couple of sutures.

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Ben: It's not going to be a life-threatening bite.

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Ben: I watched a movie and now I want a Malinois.

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Ben: That dog can and will hurt you at some point.

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Ben: It may be unintentional.

00:14:01.922 --> 00:14:08.702
Ben: And if you don't know what you're looking for, if you don't know how to read a dog, you're going to end up getting hurt, even if it was an unintentional thing.

00:14:08.702 --> 00:14:12.922
Ben: To us who work in the animal field, this is common sense.

00:14:12.922 --> 00:14:18.382
Ben: But for Joe Blow, two parents, 2.5 kids, they're both working 40-hour jobs.

00:14:18.382 --> 00:14:21.422
Ben: You have extracurriculars with your kids and everything like that.

00:14:21.422 --> 00:14:25.742
Ben: This isn't common sense because we're not working on the farm anymore.

00:14:25.802 --> 00:14:30.542
Ben: Now, my work colleagues have never seen sheep except on TV.

00:14:30.542 --> 00:14:34.542
Ben: So it's not like I'm going outside and that's how I'm making my living.

00:14:34.542 --> 00:14:37.462
Ben: I tell owners all the time, I ask questions of my intake form.

00:14:37.462 --> 00:14:44.622
Ben: Have you ever used a shot collar, a prong collar, a painting can, a spray bottle, whatever, because I need to know what you tried.

00:14:44.622 --> 00:14:46.202
Ben: And I'm not holding this against you.

00:14:46.202 --> 00:14:47.202
Ben: This isn't your fault.

00:14:47.202 --> 00:14:48.482
Ben: You're trying.

00:14:48.482 --> 00:14:51.402
Ben: It's not common knowledge anymore about what to do with dogs.

00:14:51.502 --> 00:14:56.402
Nessie: I think a lot of that has to do with people picking breeds for the look of it.

00:14:56.402 --> 00:15:07.262
Nessie: They like that the dog may look intimidating, but they don't have enough experience in owning a breed to socialize it or get it the proper training.

00:15:07.262 --> 00:15:11.942
Nessie: And they wind up not being able to handle the dog when it becomes a grown up.

00:15:11.942 --> 00:15:14.222
Nessie: That might be part of the problem with dog culture as well.

00:15:14.222 --> 00:15:20.342
Ben: Do you all remember a couple years ago when Game of Thrones started getting big, like how many Huskies found German shepherds?

00:15:20.342 --> 00:15:23.982
Ben: You know, and the name is Arya, Sansa, Khaleesi.

00:15:23.982 --> 00:15:27.982
Ben: We saw such a huge influx of people getting these dogs that looked like wolves.

00:15:27.982 --> 00:15:28.582
Ben: That's cool.

00:15:28.582 --> 00:15:31.062
Ben: I mean, look, a Husky is a beautiful dog.

00:15:31.062 --> 00:15:34.102
Ben: It's meant to run 40 miles a day.

00:15:34.102 --> 00:15:42.562
Ben: And if you're here in Florida, if you're actually, if you're 80, we're like really kind of like south of, I would say like Michigan, you probably should not be having that.

00:15:42.562 --> 00:15:48.102
Ben: If you don't get measurable snowfall every year, it's really too warm for your Husky.

00:15:48.102 --> 00:15:51.542
Ben: And congratulations, there's three foot of snow outside.

00:15:51.542 --> 00:15:53.422
Ben: Your Husky's ready to go for a 40 mile run, are you?

00:15:53.422 --> 00:15:54.042
Echo: Right.

00:15:54.042 --> 00:15:55.722
Ben: And it's not an apartment dog.

00:15:55.722 --> 00:15:57.422
Ben: It's not a suburban dog.

00:15:57.422 --> 00:16:02.102
Nessie: Yeah, but you could just shave them and then they're no haul.

00:16:02.102 --> 00:16:03.562
Ben: I'm so glad my wife can't hear this.

00:16:03.562 --> 00:16:07.282
Echo: This is being said by a crewman too, Nessie.

00:16:07.762 --> 00:16:09.262
Echo: No, you know, joking.

00:16:09.262 --> 00:16:11.022
Ben: Yeah, don't shake your Husky's toes.

00:16:11.022 --> 00:16:14.022
Nessie: No, no, no, that's not the solution.

00:16:14.022 --> 00:16:15.702
Ben: But yeah, I think that's part of it.

00:16:15.702 --> 00:16:17.062
Ben: Oh, look, that's a really beautiful dog.

00:16:17.282 --> 00:16:18.042
Ben: I really want one.

00:16:18.042 --> 00:16:23.722
Nessie: Like when 101 Dalmatians became popular, I would be wanting what that's, who have Dalmatians.

00:16:23.722 --> 00:16:27.002
Nessie: Yes, they're more a one person dog than a family dog.

00:16:27.002 --> 00:16:27.262
Nessie: Yeah.

00:16:27.262 --> 00:16:30.922
Nessie: They are not like the dogs that are displayed in the movie.

00:16:30.922 --> 00:16:33.202
Nessie: Dalmatians don't usually behave like that.

00:16:33.202 --> 00:16:35.102
Ben: Do you know the history behind the Dalmatian?

00:16:35.102 --> 00:16:35.782
Ben: What it was bred for?

00:16:36.142 --> 00:16:37.682
Ben: The Dalmatian was a coach dog.

00:16:37.682 --> 00:16:46.462
Ben: That's the reason the Dalmatian is the symbol of coach, the brand, and it was meant to be a guard dog running underneath a carriage.

00:16:46.462 --> 00:16:49.542
Ben: So it's purely a status symbol.

00:16:49.542 --> 00:16:58.262
Ben: It's like, look how much money I have, that my carriage that I only use when I leave my mansion every so often, has its own guard dog.

00:16:58.262 --> 00:17:03.082
Ben: That's all it's bred to do, is look cool and look intimidating.

00:17:03.082 --> 00:17:04.362
Ben: So then they're overbred.

00:17:05.022 --> 00:17:06.442
Ben: They're almost always deaf.

00:17:06.442 --> 00:17:10.662
Ben: I know as many dominations that are deaf that can hear, you know.

00:17:10.662 --> 00:17:11.582
Echo: Same.

00:17:11.582 --> 00:17:11.782
Nessie: Yeah.

00:17:11.802 --> 00:17:12.882
Ben: Interesting.

00:17:12.882 --> 00:17:17.402
Nessie: How come they are typically used as the fire department gimmick dogs?

00:17:17.402 --> 00:17:18.142
Ben: Oh, boy.

00:17:18.142 --> 00:17:19.022
Echo: Oh, I know that answer.

00:17:19.022 --> 00:17:19.682
Ben: No, I mean.

00:17:20.122 --> 00:17:21.902
Echo: I know that one.

00:17:21.902 --> 00:17:23.222
Echo: It's because of the overbreeding.

00:17:23.222 --> 00:17:29.542
Echo: So many were born deaf and so they can't get hearing damage from the sirens.

00:17:29.542 --> 00:17:31.702
Ben: That actually kind of makes sense in a weird way.

00:17:31.702 --> 00:17:33.702
Nessie: I didn't know that there were so many deaf ones out there.

00:17:33.882 --> 00:17:36.022
Nessie: We only see a couple that come in.

00:17:36.022 --> 00:17:36.482
Ben: Yeah.

00:17:36.702 --> 00:17:40.182
Ben: And the black and white spots is part of the reason that the game overbred.

00:17:40.182 --> 00:17:41.342
Ben: Really?

00:17:41.342 --> 00:17:44.542
Ben: They didn't always look like they were not always black and white spotted.

00:17:44.542 --> 00:17:45.842
Ben: It's a recessive trait.

00:17:45.842 --> 00:17:47.362
Ben: That's where the inbreeding led to.

00:17:47.362 --> 00:17:48.742
Echo: That makes sense.

00:17:48.742 --> 00:17:53.562
Echo: Breeding mutations to mutations to get a look, and that is how you get these problems.

00:17:53.562 --> 00:17:57.042
Echo: We were just talking about that on our episode.

00:17:57.082 --> 00:17:58.102
Nessie: That makes breed, yeah.

00:17:58.102 --> 00:18:00.242
Echo: Because people want a specific look.

00:18:00.242 --> 00:18:05.442
Echo: At my clinic, there are a lot, a lot of Frenchies.

00:18:05.442 --> 00:18:09.102
Echo: But of course, as we were talking about, that's the number one most popular breed right now.

00:18:09.102 --> 00:18:16.322
Echo: There's Piebald, and there's Merle, and there's Dapple, and I'm looking at these dogs going, you're not supposed to be these colors.

00:18:16.322 --> 00:18:27.842
Echo: But we have some that are silver, we have some that are lilac, we have some that are seal point, and they're beautiful looking dogs, but they come with a number of skin, ear, eye, breathing issues, of course.

00:18:27.842 --> 00:18:38.422
Echo: These issues are so much worse because people want this beautiful color, so they breed the recessive alleles, and it's destroying the breeds.

00:18:38.422 --> 00:18:50.302
Ben: If you're getting anything brachycephalic, and this is something that factors into what I do a lot, is when I see Frenchies, the last Frenchie I actually saw for aggression was, I want to say, two years ago.

00:18:50.302 --> 00:18:51.962
Ben: What it was, was micro seizures.

00:18:52.322 --> 00:19:00.162
Ben: Which, again, is not uncommon in Frenchies, but the only way they were able to diagnose it was, I want to say, they took it to LSU.

00:19:00.162 --> 00:19:07.182
Ben: And what got me thinking about that was, the dog would act like it was running or moving in a dream, and they sent me a video of it.

00:19:07.182 --> 00:19:15.162
Ben: And then the first thing the dog does when it woke up, you could tell it was discombobulated, and then it found the first person that moved and attacked them.

00:19:15.442 --> 00:19:16.762
Ben: I'm like, well, this is weird.

00:19:16.762 --> 00:19:19.582
Ben: There's a medical issue that's motivating this behavior.

00:19:19.582 --> 00:19:19.862
Nessie: Yeah.

00:19:21.182 --> 00:19:27.642
Ben: Because otherwise, super chill dog, I mean, would sit in my laps on his back and let me rub his belly.

00:19:27.642 --> 00:19:36.242
Ben: So again, a lot of times when you're seeing aggression issues, especially in purebreds, but in any dog, really, you need to rule out health issues.

00:19:36.242 --> 00:19:37.142
Nessie: Good point.

00:19:37.302 --> 00:19:44.022
Ben: And when I send a dog to the vet for that, I'm surprised sometimes because some vets will be like, well, what are you looking for?

00:19:44.022 --> 00:19:45.362
Ben: I'm not looking for anything.

00:19:45.362 --> 00:19:45.542
Ben: Yeah.

00:19:46.822 --> 00:19:52.122
Ben: I want a vet to do everything a vet would want to say, there's nothing wrong with this dog.

00:19:52.122 --> 00:20:01.242
Ben: There was a study that came out at the beginning of 2023 that showed 83% of aggression issues in a case study of 400 dogs.

00:20:01.242 --> 00:20:06.262
Ben: 83% of dogs had an underlying undiagnosed pain.

00:20:06.262 --> 00:20:11.442
Ben: And when they were properly treated for that pain, the aggression issues weren't already.

00:20:12.882 --> 00:20:17.542
Ben: I just recently consulted on a case and I'm doing an online assessment.

00:20:17.542 --> 00:20:22.142
Ben: I'm watching this dog and I'm seeing the dog obviously for aggression.

00:20:22.142 --> 00:20:29.982
Ben: And it feels like it's random biting, but then there's a consistent pattern of when the dog is either in a reclined position or is on their bed.

00:20:29.982 --> 00:20:31.962
Ben: The dog likes to bite, right?

00:20:31.962 --> 00:20:34.282
Ben: I'm watching him and they have him in a sitting position.

00:20:34.282 --> 00:20:38.102
Ben: And as he stands up, I notice his back legs kind of tremble a little.

00:20:38.102 --> 00:20:39.262
Ben: I'm like, okay.

00:20:39.262 --> 00:20:45.142
Ben: So what I want you to do is I want you to put him in a sit-stay, and I want you to walk really far away, and release him and throw the ball.

00:20:45.142 --> 00:20:51.122
Ben: Took him seven seconds to go from a sitting position to a standing position.

00:20:51.122 --> 00:20:54.482
Ben: And the whole time, the back legs are just trembling.

00:20:54.482 --> 00:21:03.302
Ben: And I recorded that and sent that to them, and I was like, show that to your vet, if they could have gotten the dog in the seat of that, and shown them that video, the vet would have been like, oh, well, this dog's clearly in.

00:21:03.302 --> 00:21:04.802
Ben: Something's happening on his back legs.

00:21:04.802 --> 00:21:08.022
Ben: Because the other thing is, is by time, a lot of clients reach out for help.

00:21:08.022 --> 00:21:09.362
Ben: You know, we've bitten a couple of people.

00:21:09.962 --> 00:21:12.822
Ben: No, we've talked to animal control two or three times by now.

00:21:12.822 --> 00:21:14.522
Ben: I'm usually the last stop.

00:21:14.522 --> 00:21:19.342
Ben: And a lot of times what I'm trying to do, I'm not just trying to help the dog.

00:21:19.342 --> 00:21:22.042
Ben: I'm often in a damage control position.

00:21:22.042 --> 00:21:30.862
Ben: And I have to not only look at what the dog has done and what's been done to the dog, but now I have to change people's mind and change their attitude.

00:21:30.862 --> 00:21:33.882
Ben: A lot of times we attribute aggression to maliciousness.

00:21:33.882 --> 00:21:34.842
Ben: That's not true.

00:21:34.842 --> 00:21:40.022
Ben: If you're not feeling well, you know, dog bite, if you're sick, if you're in pain.

00:21:40.022 --> 00:21:43.262
Ben: I mean, I had to get a root canal last year.

00:21:43.262 --> 00:21:45.562
Ben: I had to wait three weeks to get a root canal.

00:21:45.562 --> 00:21:50.942
Ben: And I had this pain in my mouth that just would not go away.

00:21:50.942 --> 00:21:54.702
Ben: And I can't get anything besides ibuprofen over the counter for it.

00:21:54.702 --> 00:22:00.242
Ben: So put that on a dog who can't say, my mouth hurts, my hips hurt.

00:22:00.242 --> 00:22:03.022
Ben: You know, it's hard to stand or something.

00:22:03.582 --> 00:22:08.222
Ben: What is left to the dog besides, Ouch, that hurts.

00:22:08.222 --> 00:22:11.162
Ben: I've been doing this for 10 years with dogs alone.

00:22:11.162 --> 00:22:14.542
Ben: And everything that I am learning about dogs is constantly changing.

00:22:14.542 --> 00:22:19.022
Ben: But it is a problem that we have as a culture, where I have this dog that's biting.

00:22:19.022 --> 00:22:20.942
Ben: I don't read that dog very well.

00:22:20.942 --> 00:22:22.022
Ben: My dog bites my child.

00:22:22.022 --> 00:22:24.562
Ben: My dog bites someone who's not related to me.

00:22:24.562 --> 00:22:26.182
Ben: And now I need damage control.

00:22:26.182 --> 00:22:29.702
Ben: What they are hoping for is they're hoping for a miracle.

00:22:29.702 --> 00:22:33.102
Ben: And it's really hard to turn that around when it's that late in the game.

00:22:33.142 --> 00:22:42.602
Nessie: So instead of making it a last resort when behavior issues are starting to show, it's better to address them earlier than waiting to see how it progresses.

00:22:42.602 --> 00:22:44.002
Ben: Yeah, and I tell people this all the time.

00:22:44.002 --> 00:22:44.962
Ben: I got a call.

00:22:44.962 --> 00:22:46.562
Ben: It's a German Shepherd puppy.

00:22:46.562 --> 00:22:48.422
Ben: He is like four months old.

00:22:48.422 --> 00:22:51.662
Ben: Now you have both met German Shepherds.

00:22:51.662 --> 00:22:51.962
Echo: Have what?

00:22:52.402 --> 00:22:53.262
Echo: Shepherd.

00:22:53.262 --> 00:22:54.762
Ben: Okay, you have one.

00:22:54.762 --> 00:22:58.762
Ben: So what is the extent of play biting in a German Shepherd?

00:22:58.762 --> 00:22:59.442
Ben: It's common.

00:22:59.542 --> 00:23:05.242
Ben: Well, I get called in because the back of their legs are getting shredded.

00:23:05.242 --> 00:23:06.962
Ben: This dog is like 10 weeks old.

00:23:06.962 --> 00:23:10.742
Ben: I come in and, you know, I'm wearing boots and jeans, right?

00:23:10.742 --> 00:23:11.722
Ben: I'm interacting with him.

00:23:11.722 --> 00:23:13.002
Ben: We're doing really well.

00:23:13.002 --> 00:23:16.302
Ben: I didn't even do an assessment because I didn't need to.

00:23:16.302 --> 00:23:20.402
Ben: This is a German Shepherd being a 10 week old German Shepherd.

00:23:20.402 --> 00:23:23.942
Ben: It sucks because they have sharp little milk teeth, but it's a play behavior.

00:23:23.942 --> 00:23:32.262
Ben: If you were to engage him in play, the tug of war or fetch or train him or get his mind doing something else, the biting would weigh.

00:23:32.262 --> 00:23:35.562
Ben: So is that aggression or is that the puppy being a puppy?

00:23:35.562 --> 00:23:37.122
Ben: Well, technically it is aggression.

00:23:37.122 --> 00:23:46.002
Ben: I mean, biting is an aggressive behavior, but it's within the realm of normal behavior for not only the breed, but for the age of the dog as well.

00:23:46.002 --> 00:23:52.102
Ben: If you are concerned that it's aggression, you get a puppy and you're like, wow, this puppy is biting me a lot.

00:23:52.102 --> 00:23:55.142
Ben: Like call your vet, sure, but go ahead and talk to a trainer.

00:23:55.142 --> 00:24:04.242
Ben: And if you can hear the sound of my voice and the trainer tells you, you need to establish yourself as the pack alpha or whatever, find you another trainer.

00:24:04.242 --> 00:24:05.882
Ben: Okay.

00:24:05.882 --> 00:24:07.842
Echo: I love why you said that so much.

00:24:07.842 --> 00:24:08.862
Ben: But go ahead and get help.

00:24:09.142 --> 00:24:15.782
Ben: Don't wait until the dog has bitten you, your wife, your kids, and your mother-in-law and everything like that.

00:24:15.782 --> 00:24:21.262
Ben: Because when you call me and say, well, he's bitten five people, and if you bite somebody else, we have to euthanize them.

00:24:21.262 --> 00:24:21.722
Ben: Okay?

00:24:21.722 --> 00:24:22.702
Ben: He's bitten five people.

00:24:22.942 --> 00:24:24.922
Ben: I would have called after the first bite.

00:24:24.922 --> 00:24:27.982
Ben: You don't work with animals because you're looking to get rid.

00:24:27.982 --> 00:24:33.602
Ben: I'm not a dog trainer because I decided I'm going to be wealthy and train dogs.

00:24:33.602 --> 00:24:35.382
Ben: I am a dog trainer by accident.

00:24:35.382 --> 00:24:37.822
Ben: I'm going to advocate for the dog as much as I can.

00:24:37.822 --> 00:24:42.702
Ben: The next thing I usually tell clients is, look, there's something motivating this behavior.

00:24:42.702 --> 00:24:49.082
Ben: And if there's nothing truly motivating this behavior, you know, then it's a quality of life issue, right?

00:24:49.082 --> 00:24:51.222
Ben: Because I have to approach it kind of like a scientist.

00:24:51.222 --> 00:24:52.342
Ben: What's the data?

00:24:52.342 --> 00:24:54.182
Ben: Like, what's the objective?

00:24:54.502 --> 00:24:59.742
Ben: I will tell people, when you're describing a situation to, don't tell me emotions.

00:24:59.742 --> 00:25:01.342
Ben: Don't say, well, he was angry.

00:25:01.342 --> 00:25:03.642
Ben: Angry doesn't tell me what he did.

00:25:03.642 --> 00:25:04.602
Ben: Can dogs feel anger?

00:25:04.602 --> 00:25:05.442
Ben: Sure.

00:25:05.922 --> 00:25:07.802
Ben: I fully believe dogs can feel anger.

00:25:07.802 --> 00:25:09.722
Ben: But what is the objective?

00:25:09.722 --> 00:25:10.902
Ben: All mammals have cortisol.

00:25:10.902 --> 00:25:12.982
Ben: I think reptiles and even fish get cortisol.

00:25:12.982 --> 00:25:15.162
Ben: Cortisol coats your neural receptors.

00:25:15.162 --> 00:25:22.062
Ben: And one of the many things that it does is it prevents short-term memories for converting those into long-term memory.

00:25:22.062 --> 00:25:32.842
Ben: So you go to a really stressful event, like your dog lunges at you, your memory of that is not accurate, because your brain was soaked in cortisol when that was happening.

00:25:32.842 --> 00:25:34.882
Ben: You're not going to retain anything that happened.

00:25:34.882 --> 00:25:40.482
Ben: So a lot of times, when I'm talking to these clients, I'm asking the same question just a slightly different way.

00:25:40.482 --> 00:25:47.942
Ben: Because what I'm trying to figure out, what's as most of the detailed of the picture as I can get before I say, okay, let's try to train, right?

00:25:47.942 --> 00:25:53.302
Ben: And when that person calls me, that phone call is as long as it needs to be.

00:25:53.702 --> 00:26:00.082
Ben: Because by the time you get to that point, you feel like you've exhausted all of your options, and this is the only thing that's left.

00:26:00.082 --> 00:26:04.262
Ben: And it's really not a lot of times, there's a lot of stuff we can do in those cases.

00:26:04.262 --> 00:26:08.222
Ben: Like a lot of times, there's people who are standing at an edge, and I don't envy them.

00:26:08.382 --> 00:26:09.582
Ben: Yeah, I understand where they're at.

00:26:09.582 --> 00:26:10.782
Nessie: I believe that.

00:26:10.782 --> 00:26:12.122
Ben: It's not a fun conversation.

00:26:12.362 --> 00:26:13.282
Ben: It's never fair.

00:26:13.302 --> 00:26:15.362
Nessie: Do you guys think you're ready for a review?

00:26:15.362 --> 00:26:16.102
Ben: Let's do it.

00:26:16.102 --> 00:26:21.402
Nessie: This review is for a book called Dog Training for Kids on Amazon.

00:26:21.982 --> 00:26:24.402
Nessie: It looks pretty cute.

00:26:25.002 --> 00:26:26.482
Nessie: It's a cute little book for kids.

00:26:26.482 --> 00:26:30.742
Nessie: However, I have a two-star review here from...

00:26:30.742 --> 00:26:32.202
Nessie: Any suggestions?

00:26:32.202 --> 00:26:33.622
Nessie: So it shows your key.

00:26:33.622 --> 00:26:36.002
Nessie: Okay, two-star verified purchase from Mickey.

00:26:36.002 --> 00:26:37.842
Nessie: My kids won't read it.

00:26:37.842 --> 00:26:41.482
Nessie: I'm not sure shy, but all three of my kids won't read it.

00:26:41.482 --> 00:26:42.782
Nessie: It upsets me.

00:26:42.782 --> 00:26:46.222
Nessie: It's not like our kids need the training and not the docs.

00:26:47.902 --> 00:26:50.182
Ben: I mean, can we take it aside real quick though?

00:26:51.382 --> 00:26:55.042
Ben: And talk about that because this is relevant to what we're talking about.

00:26:55.042 --> 00:26:58.362
Ben: So, you know, your statistics earlier, dog bites towards children.

00:26:58.362 --> 00:27:00.942
Ben: I was all of maybe six.

00:27:00.942 --> 00:27:07.882
Ben: I don't remember how old I was when I got my first dog bite from my Aunt Linda's dachshund named Ginger.

00:27:07.882 --> 00:27:09.602
Ben: She's obviously a red dachshund.

00:27:09.602 --> 00:27:12.462
Ben: So you give her the spicy name and everything.

00:27:12.462 --> 00:27:16.442
Ben: She bit me on the arm, and I thought it was absolutely horrible, and it was just minor abrasions.

00:27:16.782 --> 00:27:27.302
Ben: But what I did not do was I did not listen to my mother, or my uncle, or my aunt, or my older cousin, and said, don't corner the dog and try to pet her.

00:27:27.302 --> 00:27:30.422
Ben: And what did I do was I cornered the dog and tried to pet her.

00:27:30.422 --> 00:27:31.202
Ben: I'm not surprised.

00:27:31.762 --> 00:27:35.802
Ben: Why would you want a kid to read a dog training book if they're not interested in it?

00:27:35.802 --> 00:27:41.542
Nessie: Another one that I saw further along said that this book was too sophisticated for children.

00:27:41.542 --> 00:27:44.502
Nessie: The president was like, as an adult, I don't even understand this book.

00:27:44.502 --> 00:27:46.402
Nessie: So how's my kid supposed to understand it?

00:27:46.822 --> 00:27:57.462
Nessie: So I didn't look too far into the actual book itself, but I just thought it was really funny that she has three kids and not a single one of them were interested in picking up this dog training book.

00:27:57.462 --> 00:28:00.102
Nessie: They were like, that mom, you train it.

00:28:00.102 --> 00:28:01.242
Nessie: It's on you, girl.

00:28:01.242 --> 00:28:03.622
Ben: I'm to this age now where I've never seen a child holding it.

00:28:03.622 --> 00:28:05.422
Ben: They may not have known what it was.

00:28:05.422 --> 00:28:13.502
Ben: Maybe they got some of the e-book or something, or had it like a Roblox YouTube influencer or something along those lines.

00:28:13.502 --> 00:28:15.602
Ben: No, look, don't outsource your dog training.

00:28:16.282 --> 00:28:23.982
Ben: I was that little kid who I loved all animals, and I don't remember any part of my childhood without a dog, but I was certainly not a dog trained.

00:28:23.982 --> 00:28:27.502
Ben: I have met some great kids who took part in classes with me.

00:28:27.502 --> 00:28:28.322
Ben: Give the kid the clicker.

00:28:28.322 --> 00:28:30.862
Ben: The kid's doing better than the parents, right?

00:28:30.862 --> 00:28:36.942
Ben: But you don't outsource that to someone whose body is still being regulated by hormones.

00:28:36.942 --> 00:28:43.442
Nessie: I think it was bold of her to do the two stars and then just complain about her kids the whole review.

00:28:43.602 --> 00:28:45.182
Nessie: It's not the book's fault.

00:28:45.182 --> 00:28:49.102
Ben: Like I'm listening to your former episodes and it's like sometimes I was like, I think this was a user area.

00:28:49.102 --> 00:28:51.862
Nessie: Yeah, I do believe that is it a lot of times.

00:28:51.862 --> 00:28:56.662
Nessie: I do have another one for you guys just before we jump back into things.

00:29:00.722 --> 00:29:03.982
Announcer: You know the expression, cats have nine lives.

00:29:03.982 --> 00:29:06.562
Announcer: Well, what if you can give them one more?

00:29:06.562 --> 00:29:11.722
Announcer: The Give Them Ten movement is on a mission to help give cats an extra life.

00:29:12.162 --> 00:29:12.862
Announcer: How?

00:29:12.862 --> 00:29:14.442
Announcer: With spay and neuter.

00:29:14.442 --> 00:29:19.242
Announcer: Spaying or neutering your cat helps them live a longer, healthier life.

00:29:19.242 --> 00:29:23.502
Announcer: And it helps control free roaming cat populations too.

00:29:23.502 --> 00:29:30.782
Announcer: Learn more about the benefits of spay and neuter and meet Scooter, the neutered cat, at givethemten.org.

00:29:31.862 --> 00:29:33.202
Announcer: That's givethemten.org.

00:29:47.122 --> 00:29:49.942
Echo: petliferadio.com You guys are still frozen, but that's okay.

00:29:50.302 --> 00:29:54.702
Echo: I can hear you just fine, and you're clear, so I'm just going to go with that as a win.

00:29:54.942 --> 00:29:56.862
Ben: I'm not frozen, I'm just moving incredibly slow.

00:29:58.682 --> 00:30:04.942
Nessie: Uh, our next review is for a dog muzzle.

00:30:04.942 --> 00:30:05.422
Ben: You have to do-

00:30:05.422 --> 00:30:07.422
Nessie: Oh, this is definitely a Donald review.

00:30:07.422 --> 00:30:17.662
Nessie: So this is for a dog muzzle, soft nylon, anti-biting, barking, chewing air, air mesh, breathable, drinkable, adjustable loop.

00:30:17.662 --> 00:30:19.122
Ben: This is a magic muzzle.

00:30:19.162 --> 00:30:21.402
Nessie: You're supposed to be able to drink through that.

00:30:21.442 --> 00:30:22.942
Ben: You can't drink, you will.

00:30:23.142 --> 00:30:24.662
Nessie: A five-star review.

00:30:24.662 --> 00:30:29.042
Nessie: So Donald really liked it, and it's called Could Not Bite the Groomer.

00:30:29.042 --> 00:30:32.062
Nessie: So the groomer is probably really excited about this.

00:30:32.062 --> 00:30:37.722
Nessie: And she says, She looks like Hannibal Lecter, but it does the job.

00:30:37.722 --> 00:30:40.442
Nessie: She hates her nails cut and she will bite.

00:30:40.442 --> 00:30:45.362
Nessie: So I ordered this and didn't make it really tight, so she could still drink, bark, and eat.

00:30:45.362 --> 00:30:47.222
Nessie: You know, just like the description.

00:30:47.222 --> 00:30:48.962
Nessie: My dog is 10 pounds.

00:30:48.962 --> 00:30:53.322
Nessie: I bought a small and it's perfect, easy to clean, good material.

00:30:53.322 --> 00:30:57.902
Nessie: She doesn't like it, but oh well, she didn't act like Cujo.

00:30:57.902 --> 00:31:00.822
Nessie: When she got her nails clipped, we wouldn't have to wear it.

00:31:00.822 --> 00:31:02.662
Ben: Oh boy.

00:31:02.662 --> 00:31:04.802
Ben: There's so much I want to say here.

00:31:04.802 --> 00:31:06.382
Nessie: Hannibal dog.

00:31:07.542 --> 00:31:08.222
Ben: Okay.

00:31:08.222 --> 00:31:21.102
Ben: Let me start by saying, you can train a dog to tolerate getting their nails trimmed, getting a bath, getting their ears cleaned, or whatever regular maintenance your dog requires.

00:31:21.102 --> 00:31:22.322
Ben: You can do that.

00:31:22.322 --> 00:31:24.942
Ben: Basket muzzles are so much better.

00:31:24.942 --> 00:31:27.102
Nessie: I love a good basket muzzle.

00:31:27.102 --> 00:31:29.162
Ben: My standard poodle is trained to basket muzzle.

00:31:29.162 --> 00:31:32.982
Ben: I basket muzzle him because, A, I have to show it to clients.

00:31:32.982 --> 00:31:34.302
Ben: He loves shutting his nose in there.

00:31:34.302 --> 00:31:36.062
Ben: He never gets food, right?

00:31:36.062 --> 00:31:39.402
Ben: But a basket muzzle, they can drink water.

00:31:39.402 --> 00:31:41.282
Ben: They have almost full use of their jaws.

00:31:41.282 --> 00:31:45.482
Ben: And as long as you don't stick your fingers in the meat grinder, you know, you're good.

00:31:46.462 --> 00:31:50.402
Ben: Well, no, I mean, that's what, at that point, with that dog, that's what it is.

00:31:50.402 --> 00:31:51.342
Ben: It's a meat grinder.

00:31:51.542 --> 00:31:55.522
Ben: I get why vets use mesh muzzles because it's kind of a one use and everything.

00:31:55.522 --> 00:31:58.362
Ben: You know, it's on really quick, in and out kind of situation.

00:31:58.362 --> 00:32:00.322
Ben: You can train your dog to like to muzzle.

00:32:00.322 --> 00:32:02.742
Ben: And muzzling your dog saves you a lot of heartache.

00:32:02.742 --> 00:32:03.882
Ben: It's not a horrible thing to teach.

00:32:03.882 --> 00:32:04.922
Echo: I totally agree with that.

00:32:04.922 --> 00:32:09.522
Echo: Chetney has a little basket muzzle because he is really mean sometimes.

00:32:09.522 --> 00:32:10.822
Nessie: Wait, it's...

00:32:10.822 --> 00:32:12.482
Ben: You just gotta respect the alpha.

00:32:12.482 --> 00:32:13.222
Ben: That's all it is.

00:32:13.382 --> 00:32:15.962
Ben: And it's just RTA.

00:32:16.382 --> 00:32:18.122
Echo: He lives and breathes that motto.

00:32:18.122 --> 00:32:20.722
Echo: I'm telling you, he would have to do that if I would allow him.

00:32:20.722 --> 00:32:24.062
Nessie: He does seem the type that asks for a tattoo.

00:32:24.062 --> 00:32:26.522
Echo: He would just show up with one.

00:32:26.522 --> 00:32:34.762
Echo: When I got him from the rescue, the previous owner had written me a letter and she said that one of the things is that he's really mean for his nail trims.

00:32:34.762 --> 00:32:37.562
Echo: And so I was like, cool, bought a basket muzzle.

00:32:37.562 --> 00:32:39.322
Echo: I started giving him pepperoni through it.

00:32:39.322 --> 00:32:41.342
Echo: And that's the only time he ever got pepperoni.

00:32:41.342 --> 00:32:42.262
Echo: He loves that muzzle.

00:32:42.662 --> 00:32:45.082
Echo: He gets real excited when it's time to put it on.

00:32:45.222 --> 00:32:48.662
Ben: That's kind of like going to the doctor and getting Oreos with ice cream, you know?

00:32:48.822 --> 00:32:52.382
Ben: I don't like going to the doctor because every time I go to the doctor, they say something about my weight.

00:32:52.382 --> 00:32:58.042
Ben: But if she was giving Oreos as she was saying something, it's a little counterintuitive at that point.

00:32:58.042 --> 00:32:58.562
Nessie: I get that.

00:32:58.562 --> 00:33:04.982
Nessie: We also, we have like some of the cases where the doctor mentions the dog weight as she's like feeding tree after tree.

00:33:04.982 --> 00:33:09.722
Nessie: And you're like, oh, Mowdy, that's exact opposite.

00:33:09.722 --> 00:33:11.582
Ben: Yeah, that's, that tracks.

00:33:11.582 --> 00:33:13.422
Ben: Just invest in a good Baskerville.

00:33:13.422 --> 00:33:15.002
Ben: Like Baskerville makes a good brand.

00:33:15.002 --> 00:33:17.562
Ben: She's really a good rubber muzzle.

00:33:17.562 --> 00:33:19.942
Ben: And most of the time, you just stick them right in the dishwasher.

00:33:19.942 --> 00:33:22.602
Ben: No, it's great.

00:33:22.602 --> 00:33:24.302
Echo: If you have that, that's great idea.

00:33:24.302 --> 00:33:25.362
Ben: Top rack only.

00:33:25.362 --> 00:33:26.222
Nessie: Great advice.

00:33:26.222 --> 00:33:28.302
Nessie: I like that she was roasting her dog.

00:33:28.302 --> 00:33:30.502
Nessie: She was like, she looks like Hannibal in it.

00:33:30.502 --> 00:33:34.342
Nessie: And if she didn't act like Cujo at the groomer, she wouldn't have to wear it.

00:33:34.342 --> 00:33:35.682
Nessie: So she's like, it's all wrong and false.

00:33:36.562 --> 00:33:41.502
Ben: It's better than the owners who are like, my dog bit somebody, dog would never bite somebody.

00:33:41.502 --> 00:33:43.382
Nessie: As they're actively snapping at you.

00:33:43.382 --> 00:33:44.562
Ben: Like snarling.

00:33:44.562 --> 00:33:44.902
Ben: Yeah.

00:33:44.902 --> 00:33:46.722
Ben: Like it must be something you're doing wrong.

00:33:46.722 --> 00:33:51.082
Nessie: It always makes me feel like, like, oh, it's never snapped at anybody but me.

00:33:51.082 --> 00:33:52.502
Nessie: Like what I do.

00:33:52.502 --> 00:33:54.782
Nessie: And I can't help but get inside my head sometimes.

00:33:54.782 --> 00:33:58.342
Nessie: You can't help but sometimes be like, oh man, this dog hates me.

00:33:58.402 --> 00:34:00.322
Ben: I've had that happen a couple of times as a trigger.

00:34:00.342 --> 00:34:04.042
Ben: There's this thing in behavior, which is called virtualized aggression.

00:34:04.042 --> 00:34:14.242
Ben: It's when the dog has been a similar situation so many times, and aggression has helped it get to where it needed to go.

00:34:14.242 --> 00:34:15.942
Ben: I worked with a Malinois mix.

00:34:15.942 --> 00:34:18.802
Ben: Anytime I went to the house, the dog would try to lunge at me.

00:34:18.802 --> 00:34:21.202
Ben: But we were seeing progress with new people and everything.

00:34:21.202 --> 00:34:23.202
Ben: I feel like it's a virtualized aggression.

00:34:23.202 --> 00:34:30.902
Ben: And so we met at a big soccer field, and the dog wasn't on a leash, and he covered a soccer field, and he was like, I was a digs a hazard.

00:34:30.902 --> 00:34:37.562
Ben: I slid over the hood of my Subaru and jumped into it, and the dog almost full force going at me.

00:34:37.562 --> 00:34:40.742
Ben: The other came over and snapped the leash on, walked away, and the dog turned it off.

00:34:40.742 --> 00:34:44.862
Ben: So I called in their trainer friend as a, can we go do an assessment on this dog and to see what he's like?

00:34:44.862 --> 00:34:46.102
Ben: And the dog was fine with her.

00:34:46.102 --> 00:34:47.002
Ben: It was just me.

00:34:47.002 --> 00:34:54.502
Ben: Virtualized aggression is it's just that one situation where, oh, well, I've used aggression in the past, but here's a new situation.

00:34:54.502 --> 00:34:55.522
Ben: I don't have to use aggression.

00:34:55.602 --> 00:34:57.162
Nessie: They attached the leash.

00:34:57.162 --> 00:35:05.442
Nessie: I'm assuming by the more positive outcome of the story, because you're here, it was not a retractable leash?

00:35:05.442 --> 00:35:12.342
Ben: No, no, I have to the point, especially now that I've gotten older as a dog junior, I just got more confident.

00:35:12.342 --> 00:35:15.602
Ben: I'll just go ahead and throw away the retractable leash.

00:35:15.602 --> 00:35:17.642
Nessie: Just like absolutely not?

00:35:17.642 --> 00:35:20.502
Ben: Yeah, I had one person, I was like, can you hand me your leash?

00:35:20.502 --> 00:35:26.482
Ben: I handed me the retractable leash, and dug the leash out of my training bag, and clipped it on the dog, and took the retractable leash off, and gave it back to the owner.

00:35:26.482 --> 00:35:28.062
Ben: I said, that isn't garbage.

00:35:29.142 --> 00:35:34.422
Ben: And let's look, those are plastic gears in that leash.

00:35:34.422 --> 00:35:35.542
Ben: They are not metal.

00:35:35.542 --> 00:35:42.422
Ben: That is a metal wire though, that is coated in what's supposed to be like weatherproofing and material and everything.

00:35:42.422 --> 00:35:54.362
Ben: When your dog decides that it's going to go flubbing food gel on somebody, it's going to strip those gears, and in the process of not only biting, you're going to get physically hurt if you hold on to that leash.

00:35:54.382 --> 00:36:01.702
Ben: If you're an owner listening to this, just go Google retractable leash injuries and see if that's something you want to do.

00:36:01.702 --> 00:36:02.362
Ben: It's gross.

00:36:02.362 --> 00:36:04.342
Ben: I don't recommend it if you're squeamish.

00:36:04.342 --> 00:36:10.762
Ben: But yeah, no, go ahead and just throw that away and get a regular six-foot leash and use that.

00:36:10.762 --> 00:36:13.602
Ben: The same goes for those elastic jogging leashes.

00:36:15.282 --> 00:36:18.362
Ben: Don't put your dog on a rubber band, okay?

00:36:18.362 --> 00:36:20.842
Ben: You can get a hands-free leash.

00:36:20.842 --> 00:36:27.142
Nessie: They look like a normal-sized leash, and then Echo looked confused, so I was going to explain it.

00:36:27.142 --> 00:36:28.382
Nessie: Yeah, I don't know.

00:36:28.382 --> 00:36:30.502
Echo: I can't picture what we're talking about.

00:36:30.502 --> 00:36:35.242
Nessie: So it's like a bungee cord that they turned into a leash for some reason.

00:36:35.242 --> 00:36:36.562
Nessie: Yeah, it's wild.

00:36:36.562 --> 00:36:37.942
Ben: Well, that's dumb.

00:36:38.002 --> 00:36:42.242
Echo: It is bushy, but from what I've said, I...

00:36:42.242 --> 00:36:46.762
Ben: But yeah, elastic leashes are not any better than an extender leash.

00:36:46.762 --> 00:36:50.742
Nessie: They're very hard to control, and they're not like the retractable.

00:36:50.742 --> 00:36:57.022
Nessie: If the retractable is working correctly, you can shorten the length of those bungee cord leashes.

00:36:57.022 --> 00:36:57.782
Nessie: You can't.

00:36:57.782 --> 00:36:59.982
Nessie: Like, don't have any increased control.

00:36:59.982 --> 00:37:02.742
Nessie: The dog is just going to bounce away from you.

00:37:02.742 --> 00:37:03.682
Ben: It's ridiculous.

00:37:03.682 --> 00:37:04.102
Nessie: It really is.

00:37:04.162 --> 00:37:18.102
Nessie: The next topic is the role that training plays in helping to prevent these more aggressive breeds from becoming aggressive, and the style of training, if that has an effect on a dog's behavior in the long run.

00:37:18.102 --> 00:37:26.302
Nessie: Like dominance training, if that actually leads to more aggressive later on, or if the positivity training tends to make the dogs weak in the long run.

00:37:26.302 --> 00:37:30.302
Nessie: You have those people that are like, well, my dog won't protect me if I use the positive training.

00:37:30.302 --> 00:37:31.162
Nessie: Any thoughts on that?

00:37:31.922 --> 00:37:32.962
Ben: I'm literally writing a book.

00:37:32.962 --> 00:37:34.422
Ben: Wonderful.

00:37:34.422 --> 00:37:42.362
Ben: Yeah, I remember I got kicked out of a Facebook group for like dog angers here in the area back in 2016.

00:37:42.362 --> 00:37:43.342
Ben: I'm back in the group now.

00:37:43.342 --> 00:37:44.642
Ben: I think they forgot who I was.

00:37:44.642 --> 00:37:56.762
Ben: I got kicked out for pushing an agenda for saying that positive reinforcement training is statistically proven to be better than using punishment during training.

00:37:56.762 --> 00:37:59.122
Ben: We have a couple of dozen studies.

00:37:59.702 --> 00:38:05.922
Ben: It's hard to do dog science because a lot of dog science rotates around owners making observations.

00:38:05.922 --> 00:38:07.602
Ben: And so there's obviously a bias there.

00:38:07.602 --> 00:38:24.122
Ben: With one exception, every paper that has been published in the past 15 years, at least, has said that positive reinforcement is statistically better and not by a small amount, by a huge amount better for teaching a new behavior.

00:38:24.122 --> 00:38:31.162
Ben: I remember hearing stories about my grandfather's hunting beagles, and he could recall these dogs from up to two miles away with just a whistle.

00:38:31.162 --> 00:38:32.002
Ben: How is that working?

00:38:32.822 --> 00:38:35.822
Ben: What is motivating those dogs to go back to my grandfather?

00:38:35.822 --> 00:38:38.022
Ben: This goes back to a cultural thing.

00:38:38.022 --> 00:38:41.182
Ben: Is positive reinforcement is how we first domesticated dogs.

00:38:41.182 --> 00:38:50.002
Ben: If it's 20,000 years ago, we're huddled over a mammoth kill, and we see some wolves that come up, and they're like, hey, we want some of your mammoths.

00:38:50.002 --> 00:38:51.982
Ben: What was that first encounter like?

00:38:52.042 --> 00:38:53.722
Ben: You know?

00:38:53.822 --> 00:38:54.802
Ben: It's positive re-enfor-

00:38:55.322 --> 00:39:00.362
Ben: So, when you think about that, positive reinforcement is the best way to do this.

00:39:00.362 --> 00:39:05.642
Ben: So there's been a, the only reason I'm gonna reference this is because it did make its rounds in the dog world.

00:39:05.642 --> 00:39:12.282
Ben: There was a paper that came out last fall that had a notorious shock collar trainer attached to it.

00:39:12.282 --> 00:39:19.902
Ben: And anybody who read the paper ripped the science apart because they were like, positive reinforcement didn't stop a dog's prey drive.

00:39:20.122 --> 00:39:25.802
Ben: Everybody who read that paper, from scientists to trainers to behaviorists, were like, you didn't do it right.

00:39:25.802 --> 00:39:27.262
Ben: You science wrong.

00:39:27.262 --> 00:39:28.682
Ben: You got a false result.

00:39:28.682 --> 00:39:40.882
Ben: Positive reinforcement training, if you don't know what clicker training is, clicker training is a much more effective way of teaching over just positive reinforcement and you start the dog as soon as you get the dog.

00:39:40.882 --> 00:39:46.142
Ben: Whether that's a puppy at eight weeks old or a senior at eight years old, start as soon as you get the dog.

00:39:46.142 --> 00:39:48.622
Nessie: So the type of training does matter.

00:39:49.022 --> 00:39:51.202
Echo: I have a question about that.

00:39:51.202 --> 00:40:11.442
Echo: With positive only, if you have a smart dog, like your border collie, or you have a dog that is bred to make independent decisions, the quick mind kind of dog, when you are trying to establish boundaries and limitations, how do you handle when you need to make a correction when you're using positive only?

00:40:11.442 --> 00:40:18.942
Ben: So I'm really glad you brought this up because I broke my golden rule when I brought Barley into the house because I brought Barley in at the beginning of November.

00:40:18.942 --> 00:40:24.902
Ben: And I always tell clients, it's always a bad idea to get a puppy around the holidays.

00:40:25.562 --> 00:40:28.002
Ben: But it's like, I'm a professional dog trigger.

00:40:28.002 --> 00:40:29.622
Ben: I could handle this.

00:40:29.622 --> 00:40:36.022
Ben: And by the end of the season, all of the ornaments had moved all to the top of the tree.

00:40:36.022 --> 00:40:42.302
Ben: And like two strands of lights didn't work because puppy's going to pop, right?

00:40:42.302 --> 00:40:47.962
Ben: Now this year, at a year old, the tree made it, all the decorations have made it.

00:40:47.962 --> 00:40:51.642
Ben: So when you're talking about, how do I correct a problem?

00:40:53.222 --> 00:40:59.822
Ben: If you go to dominance theory, just as a quick aside, it was never intended for the dog training world.

00:40:59.822 --> 00:41:03.162
Ben: It was only intended for studying rules.

00:41:03.162 --> 00:41:10.662
Ben: And within, I want to start with 10 years, David Meach was the biologist who was the headliner on that paper.

00:41:10.662 --> 00:41:14.442
Ben: And I want to say is within 10 years, he recanted everything.

00:41:14.442 --> 00:41:17.542
Ben: He literally said, we got it all wrong.

00:41:17.542 --> 00:41:32.342
Ben: This man deserves a medal because he has spent the rest of his professional career disentangling the dog training world from the world of studying rules, specifically when it came to dominance behavior.

00:41:32.342 --> 00:41:36.722
Ben: No one uses the word alpha anymore even when it comes to wolf behavior now.

00:41:36.722 --> 00:41:37.522
Ben: How do you do this?

00:41:37.522 --> 00:41:40.002
Ben: Well, if you're thinking in life, I'm a mama dog.

00:41:40.002 --> 00:41:41.722
Ben: How am I going to stop my puppy?

00:41:41.722 --> 00:41:43.582
Ben: I'm going to light it on the net.

00:41:43.582 --> 00:41:52.902
Ben: Well, no, mom's going to do a lot of other things before that, including using body language, including using vocalizations at a subsonic frequency that we can't hear.

00:41:52.902 --> 00:41:54.882
Ben: I'm then moving the puppy.

00:41:55.022 --> 00:41:58.182
Ben: I cannot say, well, I can do this like a mama dog.

00:41:58.182 --> 00:41:59.082
Ben: I can't bite.

00:41:59.082 --> 00:42:00.842
Ben: I can't flatten my ears.

00:42:00.842 --> 00:42:02.082
Ben: I can't storm lips.

00:42:02.082 --> 00:42:02.802
Ben: I can't growl.

00:42:03.102 --> 00:42:04.942
Ben: I don't have a tail that I can position.

00:42:04.942 --> 00:42:09.142
Ben: So I have no way to tell my dog no, in a way that a well-socialized dog would understand.

00:42:09.142 --> 00:42:24.542
Ben: There was one dog trainer, and I cannot remember who it was, but her method, when she goes into a client's house, and they say, I want my dog to stop doing X, she asks, what would be the ideal conditions under which your dog could do X, right?

00:42:24.542 --> 00:42:28.442
Ben: So I don't want my dog to get the Christmas turkey, because it's full of bones.

00:42:28.442 --> 00:42:29.902
Ben: What would be the best way for your dog to do that?

00:42:30.302 --> 00:42:33.462
Ben: Well, the best way to say no is to never have to say no.

00:42:33.462 --> 00:42:36.882
Ben: Preventative care is a thing in veterinary practices.

00:42:36.882 --> 00:42:41.102
Ben: Preventative behavior is a thing in dog training practices.

00:42:41.102 --> 00:42:47.982
Ben: I have two 50-pound dogs, both of whom, when they stand up on their hind legs, are at my chest at least.

00:42:47.982 --> 00:42:50.162
Ben: Neither one had ever learned counter-surfing.

00:42:50.162 --> 00:42:51.742
Ben: How did I do that?

00:42:51.742 --> 00:42:58.442
Ben: I did behaviors in the kitchen, that look, we're in the kitchen, we're doing a down, we're doing a sit, we're doing a stay, we're doing whatever.

00:42:58.442 --> 00:43:00.522
Ben: These are the behaviors that happen in the kitchen.

00:43:00.522 --> 00:43:10.362
Ben: I don't have to say, no, don't counter-surf, because I already said, yes, when you're in the kitchen, do all of these wonderful things, and if you do these wonderful things, it'll rain treats.

00:43:10.362 --> 00:43:13.722
Ben: From a behavior perspective, we do preventative care.

00:43:13.722 --> 00:43:20.302
Ben: It's no different than raising your kids and saying, don't get in a van with strangers, don't take candy from strange people, whatever.

00:43:20.302 --> 00:43:23.322
Ben: Preventative behavior is what dog training is about.

00:43:23.702 --> 00:43:29.082
Ben: I don't have to say no if I can give my dog a million other things to say yes to.

00:43:29.082 --> 00:43:39.182
Nessie: So is that would like if you don't want them to eat your shoes, so you keep your shoes put up somewhere where they can't get to them, is that an preventative behavior?

00:43:39.182 --> 00:43:43.802
Ben: So that's that's meanage in your environment, and that is a perfectly reasonable strategy.

00:43:43.802 --> 00:43:52.182
Ben: When you don't have the time or you don't have the knowledge or whatever, your dog can't chew your shoes if they can't get to your shoes.

00:43:52.302 --> 00:43:53.782
Ben: Okay, let's talk about Barley for a sec.

00:43:53.782 --> 00:43:55.282
Ben: He used to have this really bad habit.

00:43:55.282 --> 00:43:57.642
Ben: He likes sleeping on my flip flops.

00:43:57.882 --> 00:43:59.042
Ben: I'm flat fitted as a dog.

00:43:59.042 --> 00:44:00.762
Ben: I'm never not wearing some kind of shoe.

00:44:00.762 --> 00:44:05.182
Ben: I will sit in the living room and he will be walking through the living room with one of my flip flops in his mouth.

00:44:05.182 --> 00:44:06.562
Ben: I'll go Barley, drop it.

00:44:06.562 --> 00:44:07.882
Ben: He drops it and just keeps on-

00:44:07.902 --> 00:44:10.362
Echo: Can I ask you a question about Chetney?

00:44:10.362 --> 00:44:11.602
Echo: So Chetney is 14.

00:44:11.602 --> 00:44:12.802
Echo: I got him a year ago.

00:44:12.802 --> 00:44:15.682
Echo: We've been working with him a lot on socializing.

00:44:15.682 --> 00:44:20.782
Echo: He is never off of a four-foot leash when we're around other people.

00:44:20.942 --> 00:44:24.482
Echo: And I walk around my clinic and people are like, Oh, Chetney!

00:44:24.482 --> 00:44:26.262
Echo: And I say, don't trust him.

00:44:26.262 --> 00:44:30.382
Echo: And to the best of my knowledge, I have never had him by anybody at work.

00:44:30.382 --> 00:44:37.382
Echo: There is one technician, if she is in the room, even if he could hear her voice, he is growling and snapping.

00:44:37.382 --> 00:44:40.682
Echo: If he's in his kennel and she walks in the room, he's lunging at the bars.

00:44:40.682 --> 00:44:41.982
Echo: Like he hates her.

00:44:41.982 --> 00:44:43.402
Echo: She's never done anything to him.

00:44:43.402 --> 00:44:44.302
Echo: We manage it.

00:44:44.302 --> 00:44:46.462
Echo: We put the towel in front of the kennel.

00:44:46.702 --> 00:44:49.922
Echo: If she needs to go into the room to get something, I'll go instead.

00:44:49.962 --> 00:44:59.142
Echo: But I don't want to ever put her in a situation where he hurts her, but she wants to become friends with him and he's having none of it.

00:44:59.142 --> 00:45:02.982
Echo: Is there any advice that you have, kind of off the top of your dome?

00:45:02.982 --> 00:45:08.102
Nessie: I seriously disappeared, but I was dying about the mysterious, what is it called?

00:45:08.102 --> 00:45:09.262
Echo: Mystery?

00:45:09.262 --> 00:45:10.882
Ben: The mystery.

00:45:10.882 --> 00:45:13.642
Ben: Okay, so the first thing you have to do is isolate the triggers.

00:45:13.642 --> 00:45:17.782
Ben: Isolating a trigger can be difficult because you might think about visual triggers.

00:45:18.082 --> 00:45:25.182
Ben: You're maybe not thinking about, like, audio triggers because we are a species that is so accustomed to noise.

00:45:25.182 --> 00:45:27.582
Ben: We don't hear the way our dogs hear.

00:45:27.582 --> 00:45:30.322
Ben: What I would do, we know that there's an audio trigger.

00:45:30.322 --> 00:45:32.762
Ben: If he can hear her voice, that's one thing.

00:45:32.762 --> 00:45:35.282
Ben: The next thing is, like, scent.

00:45:35.862 --> 00:45:37.522
Ben: Is it scent for seed?

00:45:37.522 --> 00:45:40.622
Ben: I would take, like, something of hers that smells like her.

00:45:40.622 --> 00:45:44.642
Ben: The best thing to do is a sock and let him smell the sock, see if he has a similar reaction.

00:45:44.762 --> 00:45:49.762
Ben: But let's say we identify the trigger, and it's seeing her and or hearing her.

00:45:49.762 --> 00:45:52.262
Ben: I'm going to pick where he's the least reactive.

00:45:52.262 --> 00:45:55.882
Ben: Is he least reactive when he sees her or is he least reactive when he just scares her?

00:45:55.882 --> 00:46:01.002
Ben: Then what I want to do is I want to condition an alternative response.

00:46:01.002 --> 00:46:08.602
Ben: This is called Condition Emotional Responses, C-E-R, you know, super tech, great techie language, though.

00:46:08.602 --> 00:46:15.302
Ben: Typically, what I do is I start with matwork, where I give the dog a defined safe space without introducing the trigger.

00:46:15.302 --> 00:46:18.102
Ben: I attach to that location calm behavior.

00:46:18.102 --> 00:46:22.122
Ben: Anytime the mat's there, the dog without a cue goes and lays down on it.

00:46:22.122 --> 00:46:32.482
Ben: Then I slowly introduce the idea there is by slowly raising the exposure, you can condition a calmer response over time.

00:46:32.482 --> 00:46:37.642
Ben: This is the fun part of being a behavior specialist is I can't tell you for certain.

00:46:37.642 --> 00:46:42.942
Ben: I could do an assessment on Chet and be like, I can't tell you for certain what's triggering the behavior, right?

00:46:42.942 --> 00:46:44.162
Ben: Life.

00:46:44.162 --> 00:46:46.742
Ben: There's also things like it could be the environment.

00:46:46.742 --> 00:46:49.602
Ben: If he were to meet her outside of the environment, would it be different?

00:46:49.602 --> 00:46:50.502
Echo: Would not.

00:46:50.502 --> 00:46:52.822
Echo: She came over to my house for a bonfire.

00:46:52.822 --> 00:46:55.362
Ben: It could be something about how she spins.

00:46:55.362 --> 00:46:58.542
Ben: It could be about how she comports herself around him.

00:46:58.542 --> 00:47:00.342
Ben: And it could be ritualized aggression.

00:47:00.342 --> 00:47:05.582
Ben: Identifying triggers is really hard because I can't look at it at a dog and be like, what about the situation for sure?

00:47:05.582 --> 00:47:06.822
Echo: I can't tell you.

00:47:06.822 --> 00:47:10.602
Nessie: Gosh, lying things would be easier if they could just tell you.

00:47:11.762 --> 00:47:14.022
Ben: I would, I'd be out of a job if dogs could speak.

00:47:14.022 --> 00:47:16.622
Ben: If you can manage that situation, then yeah, that's fine.

00:47:16.622 --> 00:47:18.902
Nessie: I have another review for that muzzle.

00:47:18.902 --> 00:47:19.682
Nessie: This one is a weird.

00:47:19.682 --> 00:47:23.082
Ben: Yeah, we're working our way through the big five, so let's go with goofy.

00:47:23.082 --> 00:47:24.822
Nessie: Is gonna be a goofy review.

00:47:24.822 --> 00:47:26.602
Nessie: I'll tell you that.

00:47:26.602 --> 00:47:29.302
Nessie: It is a one-star verified purchase.

00:47:29.302 --> 00:47:31.562
Nessie: I should have listened to the one-star comments.

00:47:32.082 --> 00:47:38.102
Nessie: I purchased this muzzle in hopes of peacefully clipping my Cheagle dognails.

00:47:38.102 --> 00:47:40.262
Nessie: This muzzle is very unsafe.

00:47:40.262 --> 00:47:43.842
Nessie: My dog was out of it and in a rage in mere seconds.

00:47:43.842 --> 00:47:47.642
Nessie: If my dog were larger, I might not be writing this review.

00:47:47.642 --> 00:47:50.462
Nessie: Take heed and stay safe.

00:47:50.462 --> 00:47:50.982
Ben: Heed?

00:47:51.022 --> 00:47:54.522
Nessie: Yikes.

00:47:54.522 --> 00:47:57.122
Nessie: I can only assume Cheagle is a Chihuahua beagle.

00:47:57.122 --> 00:47:58.382
Echo: That was what I thought also.

00:47:58.382 --> 00:47:59.622
Ben: That would be my assumption.

00:47:59.622 --> 00:48:00.502
Ben: It's a weird combination.

00:48:02.382 --> 00:48:03.802
Ben: What are your rules for putting a muzzle on?

00:48:03.802 --> 00:48:12.562
Nessie: If I am in a room, I have the clients do it because the dogs are usually more receptive to them being around their face if they're already going to be the type that might bite.

00:48:12.562 --> 00:48:20.162
Nessie: And I always have to start with skinny end on top, because one thing I've learned is most people do not know how to place a muzzle on properly.

00:48:20.162 --> 00:48:20.462
Ben: Right.

00:48:20.462 --> 00:48:20.902
Nessie: Yeah.

00:48:20.902 --> 00:48:25.142
Nessie: My first instinct is she probably didn't put it on right in the first place.

00:48:25.182 --> 00:48:32.482
Ben: Well, and then the other thing is, and I see this a lot with harnesses, is they don't want it to be too tight.

00:48:32.482 --> 00:48:41.602
Ben: Dogs have a very pronounced subcutaneous layer, and if the muzzle or the harness is not sitting almost flush with the frame, you're going to have a problem.

00:48:41.602 --> 00:48:44.902
Ben: That's probably what the issue was there.

00:48:45.262 --> 00:48:47.222
Ben: I chalked that up to easier error.

00:48:47.222 --> 00:48:50.502
Echo: I like to surprise them when they need a muzzle.

00:48:50.502 --> 00:48:53.302
Echo: I just hold it, let them sniff it, and I always let the owners know.

00:48:53.442 --> 00:48:56.342
Echo: I'm like, I'm going to surprise them.

00:48:56.342 --> 00:48:58.202
Echo: So don't you be surprised.

00:48:58.202 --> 00:49:01.882
Echo: So you just stand there, you pet them, you talk to them like normal.

00:49:01.882 --> 00:49:03.222
Echo: I'm just going to stand here like this.

00:49:03.222 --> 00:49:06.142
Echo: That's when I see their body start to relax.

00:49:06.142 --> 00:49:12.522
Echo: Particularly with a lot of dogs, I feel like when their face is really tight, they are about to bite.

00:49:12.522 --> 00:49:18.142
Echo: So when their face kind of relaxes a little bit, that's when I go, you buckle it real fast, tighten it up.

00:49:18.142 --> 00:49:24.822
Echo: I like surprises because if you give them the chance, particularly dogs that have had muzzles before.

00:49:24.822 --> 00:49:25.602
Ben: Oh yeah, they get smart.

00:49:25.602 --> 00:49:27.002
Echo: They'll give them the chance.

00:49:27.002 --> 00:49:32.182
Ben: This is something that I feel like gets a little swept under the rug because, oh, I don't want to muzzle my dog.

00:49:32.182 --> 00:49:33.322
Ben: No, muzzle your dog.

00:49:33.322 --> 00:49:35.102
Ben: Teach your dog to be in a muzzle.

00:49:35.102 --> 00:49:35.462
Echo: Yes.

00:49:35.462 --> 00:49:38.382
Ben: It's no different than, well, I don't want to wear a seatbelt.

00:49:38.382 --> 00:49:39.402
Ben: It's uncomfortable.

00:49:39.402 --> 00:49:40.622
Ben: Dude, you gotta wear a seatbelt.

00:49:40.902 --> 00:49:44.142
Ben: If you get held over, you're not wearing a seatbelt, you're gonna get a ticket.

00:49:44.142 --> 00:49:47.682
Ben: I would rather be the one who puts the muzzle on.

00:49:47.682 --> 00:49:49.262
Ben: My dog knows the muzzle's coming on.

00:49:49.402 --> 00:49:52.782
Ben: My dog knows the muzzle is safe, and I know the muzzle is well-fitted.

00:49:52.782 --> 00:49:57.862
Ben: It is so much easier if your dog goes, oh, I'm getting a muzzle now.

00:49:57.862 --> 00:50:01.842
Nessie: There's this big aversion to muzzles amongst pet owners.

00:50:02.362 --> 00:50:07.182
Nessie: Nurses are being mean when you muzzle them, or it makes the dog look like they're mean.

00:50:07.182 --> 00:50:10.802
Nessie: And it keeps us all honest in the situation, you know?

00:50:10.802 --> 00:50:11.502
Echo: Yeah.

00:50:11.502 --> 00:50:12.142
Nessie: It's all pretty.

00:50:12.142 --> 00:50:19.422
Echo: One of the doctors that we work with likes to say that no dog should have a record because they got scared for a second.

00:50:19.422 --> 00:50:26.842
Echo: Because all it takes is they get scared for a second, they bite, and then let's say you've got blood dripping down your hand, like that sucks.

00:50:26.842 --> 00:50:27.902
Ben: That's my point with that.

00:50:27.902 --> 00:50:33.022
Ben: I would rather be just spared the embarrassment of being, oh, my dog bit somebody.

00:50:33.022 --> 00:50:39.682
Ben: And I know I have a reputation within the community here of being the aggression dog guy, and I'm the crazy dog dad.

00:50:39.682 --> 00:50:48.682
Ben: I would rather prevent someone going to the ER on my account and then talking to animal control by just having your dog trained to go on to a muzzle.

00:50:48.682 --> 00:50:49.902
Ben: And it's the easiest thing in the world.

00:50:49.902 --> 00:50:50.922
Echo: So easy.

00:50:50.922 --> 00:50:51.182
Echo: Oh yeah.

00:50:51.182 --> 00:50:52.962
Nessie: It does not hurt them.

00:50:52.962 --> 00:50:54.202
Ben: It does not hurt them.

00:50:54.202 --> 00:50:59.502
Ben: And if you get a basket muzzle, then it doesn't even put any pressure on their mouth at all.

00:50:59.502 --> 00:51:03.722
Ben: It's no different than wearing a hat or a jacket or anything else.

00:51:03.722 --> 00:51:08.342
Nessie: No, I have a couple of the more popular breeds.

00:51:08.342 --> 00:51:12.582
Nessie: I got this list from illegal dog breeds ranked around the world.

00:51:12.722 --> 00:51:18.222
Nessie: I didn't make a list of the countries, just how many countries have outlawed these breeds.

00:51:18.222 --> 00:51:23.222
Nessie: And do you guys think you can guess the number one outlawed breed across all the countries?

00:51:23.222 --> 00:51:25.842
Ben: It's going to be like pit bull, pit bullies or something.

00:51:25.842 --> 00:51:27.022
Nessie: It is pit bull.

00:51:27.022 --> 00:51:29.502
Nessie: Forty-nine countries have banned pit bull.

00:51:29.502 --> 00:51:36.702
Nessie: The only number that comes close is a breed that I never even heard of, a Tossa Enus.

00:51:36.982 --> 00:51:38.482
Echo: A Tossa Enus.

00:51:39.002 --> 00:51:39.662
Echo: I have heard of them.

00:51:41.642 --> 00:51:44.082
Echo: I think they're Japanese Mastiffs.

00:51:44.262 --> 00:51:48.922
Ben: I put in T-O-S and it popped up to Google's like, are we looking for dogs again?

00:51:48.922 --> 00:51:50.142
Ben: Yeah, that's a Mastiff.

00:51:50.142 --> 00:51:54.822
Nessie: And that is the second most banned at only 18 countries.

00:51:54.822 --> 00:52:00.482
Nessie: So, pit bulls are far more feared than even this Tossa.

00:52:00.482 --> 00:52:06.462
Echo: And there's only 170 something countries in the world at this moment anyway.

00:52:07.062 --> 00:52:16.082
Echo: And so, to have 49 of them banned, like, that is a third of what's 49 out of, although I'm going to do something like that.

00:52:16.082 --> 00:52:16.962
Ben: I can't add it to math.

00:52:17.442 --> 00:52:18.422
Ben: I'm not doing that kind of math.

00:52:18.842 --> 00:52:24.762
Echo: It's like a quarter of the countries, give or take, around the world have said no.

00:52:24.762 --> 00:52:42.082
Ben: I mean, I think the logic behind that is, is that is just, we all know, there are three dog professionals here right now, and all of us have been bitten or tried to be bitten by a Chihuahua, a Yorkie, a whatever, more than we've died, a bull has made a play for us.

00:52:42.082 --> 00:52:49.382
Ben: You know, but that being said, you know, a Yorkie, a Chihuahua, a Dachshund, a Schnauzer does not maim somebody.

00:52:49.542 --> 00:52:59.242
Ben: I feel like that's not super fair to breed, because in almost all of these cases, it is bad humors who have led to the situation.

00:52:59.242 --> 00:53:00.262
Echo: Poor breeding.

00:53:00.262 --> 00:53:05.982
Echo: I lived in Detroit for a few years, and there was a big fighting pit nearby.

00:53:05.982 --> 00:53:08.022
Echo: I worked at a low-cost vet clinic.

00:53:08.022 --> 00:53:12.762
Echo: We would have a lot of clientele with pit bulls from the city proper.

00:53:12.982 --> 00:53:20.582
Echo: There was a noticeable difference in how these dogs would interact with people and other dogs.

00:53:20.582 --> 00:53:34.102
Echo: I come down here in Florida, pit bulls, as a general term, seem to be very sweet, friendly, like, dopey, muscle puppy, but very different from the experience in the city.

00:53:34.102 --> 00:53:41.882
Ben: Your chances of leading a pit bull that has been spread specifically for aggression is exponentially low.

00:53:41.882 --> 00:53:46.362
Ben: Most of the time, when you're seeing a, quote-unquote, pit bull, you're not seeing a purebred dog.

00:53:46.362 --> 00:53:50.722
Ben: You're seeing a dog has some bulldog in its ancestry somewhere.

00:53:50.762 --> 00:54:00.842
Ben: And we forget there's a study, and it was just one of those things where the science went gloriously right, but the reporting on it went gloriously wrong.

00:54:00.842 --> 00:54:09.222
Ben: It was a study that showed that in some cases, up to 40% of behavior was dictated by breed.

00:54:09.222 --> 00:54:13.982
Ben: Like, it wasn't the only factor that dictated behavior.

00:54:13.982 --> 00:54:18.422
Ben: So all of the reporting was like, oh, science shows breed doesn't matter.

00:54:18.422 --> 00:54:19.862
Ben: That's not what the science said.

00:54:20.322 --> 00:54:22.342
Ben: Yeah, 40% is less than 60%.

00:54:22.602 --> 00:54:23.402
Ben: That's true.

00:54:23.402 --> 00:54:33.862
Ben: That other 60% was broken up into socialization, early life experiences, health of the puppy, health of the dam, health of the lions going back, breed, health predispositions.

00:54:33.862 --> 00:54:39.622
Ben: Breed does play a big factor in what type of aggressive displays you can predict.

00:54:39.622 --> 00:54:45.982
Ben: I had been lunged at by many dogs, and I've been lunged at by a couple of pits, but I can't tell you the last time I dealt with an aggressive pet.

00:54:45.982 --> 00:54:51.242
Nessie: The next one on our list is Dobermans, which are banned in 11 countries.

00:54:51.242 --> 00:55:00.302
Echo: I feel like the biggest sin that a Doberman commits is just like, they don't remember how big or how strong they are, and they break everything.

00:55:00.302 --> 00:55:02.242
Echo: I've never even been gawled at by one.

00:55:02.242 --> 00:55:06.242
Ben: I feel like the history of the breed is more working against it than the actual breed itself.

00:55:06.242 --> 00:55:11.342
Ben: Well, they were so popular in World War I that that's what kind of works against it.

00:55:11.342 --> 00:55:16.582
Nessie: Then, Cain Corso and Roddy's are at a tie at banned in nine countries.

00:55:16.922 --> 00:55:22.762
Nessie: So, one thing I saw that's in common in this list are they are big, muscular, intimidating looking breeds.

00:55:22.762 --> 00:55:34.022
Nessie: But as you mentioned before, because I also looked up at most likely to bite lists as well, and number one on all of those lists is typically the Chihuahua followed by Dachshund.

00:55:34.022 --> 00:55:43.682
Nessie: So, yeah, I mean, I 100 percent believe that I would be bit by this Chihuahua before the pit bull, but that's not going to make it onto the list.

00:55:44.202 --> 00:55:49.802
Ben: If you just a quick Google search, you have a device in your pocket, Google, like, what is an Australian Shepherd met to do?

00:55:49.802 --> 00:55:51.822
Ben: And you go, oh, it's a cattle dog.

00:55:51.822 --> 00:55:53.882
Ben: I live in an apartment complex.

00:55:53.882 --> 00:55:57.822
Ben: I'm in the military, so I never know what my schedule is like, and I'm moving all the time.

00:55:57.822 --> 00:55:58.562
Ben: Don't get an Aussie.

00:55:58.562 --> 00:56:07.042
Nessie: So this is a product called Rocko and Roxy Puppy Potty Training Go Here Spray for dogs.

00:56:07.042 --> 00:56:10.102
Nessie: They have a separate product called No Chew.

00:56:10.102 --> 00:56:14.622
Nessie: So that is where this review actually comes from, just the chew one.

00:56:14.622 --> 00:56:16.302
Nessie: Who's our next review from?

00:56:16.302 --> 00:56:18.362
Ben: Let's say Daisy.

00:56:18.362 --> 00:56:23.402
Nessie: So Daisy left a one-star verified purchase called Apparently Didn't Work.

00:56:23.402 --> 00:56:27.882
Nessie: I have a Bassett Hound puppy that is now eight months old.

00:56:27.882 --> 00:56:30.402
Nessie: He chews and eats everything.

00:56:30.402 --> 00:56:32.442
Nessie: He ruined all my patio chairs.

00:56:32.442 --> 00:56:36.682
Nessie: He eats socks and chews on the other dog's ears.

00:56:36.682 --> 00:56:38.622
Nessie: I bought this to deter him.

00:56:38.622 --> 00:56:40.482
Nessie: I sprayed it on the patio chairs.

00:56:40.882 --> 00:56:43.202
Nessie: I sprayed it on the dog's ears.

00:56:43.202 --> 00:56:47.262
Nessie: I guess I left the product in the backyard, and he got it.

00:56:47.262 --> 00:56:50.182
Nessie: He chewed it up and ate the spray cap.

00:56:50.182 --> 00:56:54.662
Nessie: I hope he poops or throws that up, or it's another visit to the vet.

00:56:54.662 --> 00:56:59.222
Nessie: Apparently doesn't work that well, because the bottle is completely empty.

00:56:59.222 --> 00:57:02.242
Nessie: And here is the chewed bottle of No-Chew.

00:57:02.382 --> 00:57:07.442
Nessie: It feels like the opposite of what a No-Chew product should do.

00:57:07.442 --> 00:57:09.642
Ben: Yeah, we had bought the house that we're in right now.

00:57:10.022 --> 00:57:11.442
Ben: We had this lemon tree.

00:57:11.442 --> 00:57:13.662
Ben: We were really excited about this lemon tree.

00:57:13.662 --> 00:57:15.102
Ben: It gave us a lot of lemons.

00:57:15.102 --> 00:57:22.042
Ben: And I kid you not, Kristoff had one big, white, beautiful yellow lemon in his mouth.

00:57:22.042 --> 00:57:24.182
Ben: And he was just biting down at them.

00:57:24.182 --> 00:57:29.082
Ben: And juice was just pouring out of his mouth and all over his little poodle beard.

00:57:29.082 --> 00:57:31.062
Ben: And I was like, well, that proves a couple of things right there.

00:57:31.062 --> 00:57:33.062
Nessie: Is that what they're supposed to be like?

00:57:33.122 --> 00:57:35.962
Ben: A lot of times, that was the nose goo sprays are.

00:57:35.962 --> 00:57:47.062
Ben: Sometimes it'll have things like cinnamon or clove, or pretty much if you would put it into either a baked good or into a mixed drink to enhance the flavor, that's usually what they use.

00:57:47.062 --> 00:57:50.302
Ben: Chewing is what's called a displacement behavior.

00:57:50.302 --> 00:58:00.182
Ben: So chewing is something that all canines do, as both a way to maintain their health on their teeth and to calm themselves.

00:58:00.182 --> 00:58:03.042
Ben: Their sense of smell is way different than our sense of smell.

00:58:03.042 --> 00:58:09.162
Ben: And they can even detect particles in the air that are effectively stimulus.

00:58:09.162 --> 00:58:13.462
Ben: So something that to us is has no scent, to a dog has a scent.

00:58:13.462 --> 00:58:20.442
Ben: So when you think about that, a spray, whatever, a chewing deterrent is not going to work.

00:58:20.442 --> 00:58:21.782
Ben: I mean, look, dogs eat poop.

00:58:21.782 --> 00:58:24.382
Ben: It has to taste better than what it smells like to us.

00:58:24.382 --> 00:58:28.942
Ben: You're not going to deter a dog with a spray from chewing on something.

00:58:28.942 --> 00:58:37.022
Ben: You're going to deter a dog from chewing on things it's not supposed to by giving them something they like better for modifying or managing the environment.

00:58:37.022 --> 00:58:40.922
Ben: I would like to tell this person with a basset how your basset probably grew out of it.

00:58:40.922 --> 00:58:43.202
Ben: I've never met a basset that was a super heavy chew.

00:58:43.202 --> 00:58:48.722
Ben: And I've also never met a basset who wasn't anything more than a dog shaped spot on its house.

00:58:48.722 --> 00:58:55.802
Ben: But chewing is something all dogs do, and you have to give that dog preferably not spray bottles.

00:58:55.802 --> 00:59:01.382
Ben: Yes, preferably not spray bottles, shoes, clothing.

00:59:01.382 --> 00:59:04.502
Ben: They're going to go to your dirty hamper because it was good to them.

00:59:04.502 --> 00:59:06.402
Ben: Collagen shoes are perfectly safe.

00:59:06.402 --> 00:59:09.482
Ben: I don't like using bully sticks or anything like that.

00:59:09.482 --> 00:59:11.322
Ben: My border collie loves pumpkins.

00:59:11.322 --> 00:59:17.642
Ben: I just cut the stem off when he breaks the stem a little, stem comes off, and he's using the pumpkin until he gets down to the food.

00:59:17.642 --> 00:59:20.562
Ben: And then I just go smash the pumpkin up back yard and use it for mulch.

00:59:20.562 --> 00:59:21.582
Ben: That's a perfectly safe thing.

00:59:21.622 --> 00:59:23.142
Ben: Sweet potatoes, sweet potatoes will work.

00:59:23.142 --> 00:59:25.742
Nessie: Are you giving the sweet potatoes raw or are they cooked?

00:59:25.742 --> 00:59:26.302
Ben: Carrots.

00:59:26.302 --> 00:59:29.162
Ben: Peel them, peel them and give them to them raw.

00:59:29.162 --> 00:59:33.082
Ben: And you might want to cut it a little so it's not huge, but a sweet potato-

00:59:33.082 --> 00:59:33.842
Echo: I'll try that.

00:59:34.062 --> 00:59:35.302
Ben: It's horrible for your dog.

00:59:35.302 --> 00:59:39.362
Echo: My shepherd, Samantha, she loves the CET chews a little soft raw hide.

00:59:39.362 --> 00:59:40.762
Echo: But they're cutting them in their expenses.

00:59:40.762 --> 00:59:43.722
Echo: So I only give her one or two a week.

00:59:43.722 --> 00:59:46.122
Echo: But how expensive is a sweet potato?

00:59:46.122 --> 00:59:48.142
Echo: A few cents?

00:59:48.142 --> 00:59:51.362
Ben: We keep our potatoes in a little basket underneath the drawer or kitchen.

00:59:51.362 --> 00:59:53.902
Ben: And it's a pleasant surprise when the dog brings me a sweet potato.

00:59:53.902 --> 00:59:56.842
Ben: I'm like, all right, buddy, I mean, wash it off.

00:59:56.842 --> 00:59:59.182
Ben: We went to a pumpkin patch with Barley and let it pick up.

00:59:59.182 --> 01:00:08.742
Ben: If you don't give your dog something to chew on, if you don't give your dog something to rip apart, they're going to find something to rip apart and they're going to be the best at ripping that apart.

01:00:08.782 --> 01:00:10.042
Nessie: Yeah.

01:00:10.042 --> 01:00:20.502
Nessie: So some takeaways that I got from our time today is that intervention with training as early as possible is the best answer.

01:00:20.502 --> 01:00:28.322
Nessie: That aggression does not necessarily get related to a particular, any dog can bite and positive training is best.

01:00:28.322 --> 01:00:32.042
Nessie: Did I miss some points that we can sum up here at the end?

01:00:32.042 --> 01:00:32.642
Ben: And pumpkins.

01:00:33.782 --> 01:00:37.322
Ben: What I will tell you is do not wait to get help.

01:00:37.322 --> 01:00:41.722
Ben: Well, Fluffy grouse at me whenever I approach him and he's laying on his bed.

01:00:41.722 --> 01:00:42.542
Ben: What should I do?

01:00:42.542 --> 01:00:43.562
Ben: Call a dog trainer.

01:00:43.562 --> 01:00:45.182
Ben: And I said this at the start of the show.

01:00:45.182 --> 01:00:50.122
Ben: If the dog trainer says, you just got to establish yourself as the alpha, call a different dog trainer.

01:00:50.122 --> 01:00:50.582
Ben: Okay.

01:00:50.582 --> 01:00:53.222
Ben: You're never going to be able to prepare for everything.

01:00:53.222 --> 01:00:55.882
Ben: This is a living, evolving relationship.

01:00:55.882 --> 01:01:02.982
Ben: As two species are cohabitating and on the individual level, I learned some things from Kristoff.

01:01:02.982 --> 01:01:05.402
Ben: I did some things with Barley better than I did with Kristoff.

01:01:05.402 --> 01:01:08.522
Ben: I did things with Kristoff better than I did things with Flynn.

01:01:08.522 --> 01:01:10.342
Ben: That is how it's supposed to be.

01:01:10.342 --> 01:01:12.462
Ben: You're supposed to keep going and learning with us.

01:01:12.462 --> 01:01:13.742
Ben: And training doesn't stop.

01:01:13.742 --> 01:01:15.202
Ben: It keeps going after you're done.

01:01:15.202 --> 01:01:16.582
Ben: I'm a sole proprietorship.

01:01:16.942 --> 01:01:18.522
Ben: I don't have the facility.

01:01:18.522 --> 01:01:24.802
Ben: I go to the owner's homes, mainly because most of the time when you're dealing with an aggression case, it's happening in or around them.

01:01:24.802 --> 01:01:26.162
Ben: I'm a one-man act.

01:01:26.822 --> 01:01:30.442
Ben: I am my own accountant, secretary, all of that.

01:01:30.682 --> 01:01:34.442
Ben: But my office Christmas parties are great, because I love my cute co-workers.

01:01:34.442 --> 01:01:36.622
Ben: They will literally just work for treats.

01:01:36.622 --> 01:01:38.142
Ben: That's what my wife had her joking about.

01:01:38.142 --> 01:01:43.122
Ben: Her office Christmas party is radically different than my office Christmas party.

01:01:43.122 --> 01:01:46.542
Ben: So I can show up to my office Christmas party in PJs and house shoes.

01:01:46.542 --> 01:01:48.522
Nessie: No, I'm just looking there.

01:01:48.522 --> 01:01:50.162
Nessie: No, no, don't do that, ma'am.

01:01:50.162 --> 01:01:51.662
Ben: This will be, I guess, my sign-off thing.

01:01:51.662 --> 01:01:53.062
Ben: Training is the same.

01:01:53.602 --> 01:01:55.582
Ben: It doesn't matter what behavior you're modifying.

01:01:55.582 --> 01:01:57.522
Ben: It's the same process.

01:01:57.522 --> 01:01:58.722
Ben: The parts are interchangeable.

01:01:59.122 --> 01:02:01.962
Ben: Every animal learns the same way.

01:02:01.962 --> 01:02:03.842
Ben: It changes a little bit by what we're teaching.

01:02:03.842 --> 01:02:09.522
Ben: It's no different teaching a dog to accept eye drops than it is to accept an yellow trim than it is to lie down on cue.

01:02:09.522 --> 01:02:11.682
Ben: It's the same formula.

01:02:11.682 --> 01:02:15.122
Nessie: If our listeners wanted to find you, want to plunge your social medias.

01:02:15.122 --> 01:02:18.942
Ben: Looking for me on any social media, it's under Concerned Canines.

01:02:18.942 --> 01:02:20.362
Ben: That is Canines, spelled out.

01:02:20.362 --> 01:02:22.502
Ben: That's C-A-N-I-N-E-S.

01:02:22.502 --> 01:02:26.462
Ben: Except on Instagram, where it's Concerned, the letter K and the number 9.

01:02:26.942 --> 01:02:28.762
Ben: You can find me at concernedcanines.com.

01:02:28.762 --> 01:02:30.222
Ben: That'll link you to all the stuff.

01:02:30.222 --> 01:02:32.662
Ben: Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok.

01:02:32.662 --> 01:02:35.882
Ben: I'm also on YouTube, my YouTube channel Concerned Canines.

01:02:35.882 --> 01:02:40.622
Ben: You'll be able to see all of my training video, pictures and videos of Barley and Chris.

01:02:40.622 --> 01:02:44.222
Ben: And I will work with clients all over the country.

01:02:44.222 --> 01:02:45.742
Ben: I can help you with your problem.

01:02:45.742 --> 01:02:47.022
Nessie: There is hope out there.

01:02:47.022 --> 01:02:47.962
Nessie: Train your dogs.

01:02:47.962 --> 01:02:48.962
Nessie: All right, you guys.

01:02:48.962 --> 01:02:51.362
Nessie: Well, that was a thumbs up from Echo.

01:02:51.362 --> 01:02:53.162
Nessie: So you guys know how to find Ben.

01:02:53.162 --> 01:02:55.662
Nessie: If you need him, I highly encourage you reach out.

01:02:55.902 --> 01:02:57.442
Nessie: You know how to find us.

01:02:57.442 --> 01:02:59.382
Nessie: Our social medias will be in this show notes.

01:02:59.382 --> 01:03:02.202
Nessie: Take a round for our AI generated song.

01:03:02.202 --> 01:03:04.262
Nessie: Otherwise, we'll catch you in our next episode.

01:06:06.543 --> 01:06:12.503
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