Canine Cognitive Psychotherapy – Billie Groom
Billie Groom has been a canine behavioral consultant and “dogologist” for over 30 years. Looking beyond training methodology, she gets to the core of behavior through understanding canine emotions. Working with her methods of changing how dogs perceive reality, and changing their decisions about how they react to common stressors, she has been able to help thousands of rescue dogs in many countries.
As the CEO and founder of the Institute of Canine Psychotherapy she is now dedicated to teaching her methods online with a team of researchers, scientists, and holistic veterinarians. Her goal is to reduce behavioral euthanasia and returns of dogs to shelters by transforming behavior so that humans and dogs can understand each other better and share more harmonious lives.
Listen to Episode #51 Now:
BIO:
Billie Groom is the founder of, and expert in, Canine Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, a revolutionary method proven to decrease anxiety, aggression, and behaviors common in the adolescent stage. Her extensive work with dogs over the age of six months, many with challenging pasts, beginning over three decades ago, stems from her dedication to ensure all dogs are understood, respected, and encouraged to thrive cognitively and emotionally, thus preventing surrender and euthanasia.
In the early stages of her career, Billie started one of the first pet care businesses in Toronto, Canada which spawned her interest in adolescent and adult dog behavior. She sold the business to learn more about rescued dogs and the industry. Billie’s determination to better understand these dogs led to her rescuing and rehabilitation and rehoming hundreds of dogs, all with their unique stories and personalities. She is grateful to these dogs, who not only trusted her, but gave her the opportunity to embark on her own learning path, leading to the development of the method that has shaped her entire personal and professional life.
Her “unintentional” career as a behaviorist and her impact in the industry opened the doors to connect with psychologists, psychiatrists, veterinarians, scientists, rescue organizations, and industry experts. Her desire to continue her learning journey led to extensive volunteer work, research, collaborative projects, courses, studies, and uncountable “chinwags”, all of which expanded her knowledge and improved her ability to help dogs and people.
Billie is seen on Roku TV, LA Tribune, and CTV, and featured in Psychology Today Magazine by Marc Bekoff. She is the guest on many podcasts, including The Vet Blast, and is a returning guest speaker at the Animal Science and Veterinary Medicine Conferences and Animal Behavior Society Conferences. She is the author of an award-winning book and has her own podcast. She is a recipient of the 2024 Best Business Award and has received many accolades throughout her career.
In 2022, Billie completed the Brain Development in Life Stages Courses by Dr. Kathy Murphy, and in 2023 completed the Cognition and Emotions to Improve Animal Welfare course offered by the Swedish University of Agricultural Science as part of their PhD program. She began the PhD program in Leadership and Change at Antioch University in which she excelled; however, made the decision to leave the program to pursue a path aligning with her goals and principles. Billie launched ICP, and is pursuing her PhD in Transpersonal Ecology at the University of Sedona.
Billie’s dedication to dogs is relentless. Despite the inherent challenges in being an innovator of a intangible product in an unregulated industry, Billie has made great strides in spreading awareness on the benefits of, and need for, canine psychotherapy in a system in desperate need of progressive initiatives. To make an impact on a greater scale, Billie recognizes the need to share CCBT on a larger scale and continue to broaden her network, advance her education, and pursue collaborations and mentors with the necessary skills and resources to take her mission to the next level.
Transcript:
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Announcer: This is Pet Life Radio.
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Announcer: Let's talk pets.
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Announcer: Welcome to The Human-Animal Connection Show, where we believe we can communicate with all animals.
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Announcer: Join us as we explore the 33 principles and healing methods of The Human-Animal Connection.
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Announcer: As animal lovers, we know that you share our commitment to making the world a kinder place for all creatures.
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Announcer: Together, let's embrace the transformative healing power of The Human-Animal Connection.
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Genie Joseph: Hi, everyone.
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Genie Joseph: Welcome to The Human-Animal Connection podcast.
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Genie Joseph: I am so looking forward to this episode.
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Genie Joseph: I've been really looking forward to speaking with Billie Groom, because she has developed a really fascinating method of working with behavioral issues in dogs in an all positive manner and she works with the concept of cognitive behavioral therapy.
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Genie Joseph: So you may be familiar with that in the human realm of changing perception.
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Genie Joseph: People's way they're relating to the world, their maps of the world.
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Genie Joseph: I'm fascinated to find out how she uses that wonderful work with dogs.
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Genie Joseph: So Billie Groom has been in the dog business for over three decades.
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Genie Joseph: She has helped dogs from all different countries, all different rescues and shelters, as well as working with clients and dogs for, I think I said over 30 years.
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Genie Joseph: So she's got a lot of experience to share with us today.
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Genie Joseph: Well, Billie, thank you for being on our show.
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Billie Groom: Thank you so much, Genie.
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Billie Groom: It's so great to be here.
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Billie Groom: I love what you do as well.
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Billie Groom: I think it's wonderful.
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Genie Joseph: Yeah.
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Genie Joseph: I think we are like-minded individuals.
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Genie Joseph: We got to stick together.
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Genie Joseph: Those of us who love animals.
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Billie Groom: There's a connection.
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Genie Joseph: Yeah.
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Genie Joseph: Those of us who love animals and want to do better by them.
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Genie Joseph: So yeah.
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Genie Joseph: So let's start with your, you call yourself a dogologist.
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Genie Joseph: And what does that mean?
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Billie Groom: Well, it's interesting.
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Billie Groom: Yeah, I guess because it's viewing dogs and working with dogs differently than just training.
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Billie Groom: So it's understanding their whole being and their whole way of thinking, how they, and just being interested in them from a larger scale.
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Billie Groom: So it wasn't as though I necessarily intended to be a trainer or a behaviorist.
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Billie Groom: It was more that I wanted to understand why they were being euthanized and surrendered for behavioral reasons.
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Billie Groom: And then that led on a path of understanding them on a larger scale.
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Billie Groom: Well, really, I only focused on dogs over six months of age.
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Billie Groom: So not with the puppy training and that type of thing.
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Billie Groom: And so I guess dogologist is a little bit like what a bartender would say is a mixologist.
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Billie Groom: So you're not a bartender, you're just actually really interested in how things work together, creating new, innovative, taking what's there, what's working, really dissecting, deciphering.
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Billie Groom: So I've worked with scientists and psychologists in the human realm to understand dogs.
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Billie Groom: So taking a larger approach, I would say, not to psychotherapeutic methods, as opposed to conditioning methods, which work well as well.
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Genie Joseph: Yes, fascinating.
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Genie Joseph: Well, the difference between training and really establishing a true partnership or true bond is I think the foundation of what you're talking about.
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Genie Joseph: So that's really exciting.
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Genie Joseph: And I know our listeners know that one of the leading causes of dogs being surrendered to the shelter are so-called behavioral issues.
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Genie Joseph: People can't handle it anymore.
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Genie Joseph: They don't know what to do.
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Genie Joseph: And they're at the wits end and the dog goes back to shelter.
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Genie Joseph: And I know these are, you've worked with many cases like this.
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Genie Joseph: So tell us a little bit.
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Genie Joseph: I mean, when I think of CBT, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, I think of words.
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Genie Joseph: I think of, you know, changing language and changing, you know, using words to change perception.
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Genie Joseph: How does cognitive behavioral therapy work with dogs?
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Billie Groom: That's a really good point.
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Billie Groom: It is considered talk therapy.
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Billie Groom: It is a psychotherapy.
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Billie Groom: So there's a number of psychotherapeutic approaches.
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Billie Groom: I just find with cognitive behavioral therapy.
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Billie Groom: And in fact, I should say, which is an interesting point, is I developed this method from working with dogs and created it.
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Billie Groom: And then, like I said, worked with psychologists.
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Billie Groom: It was only later in my career that I was told from professionals in the human psychology realm, particularly with children, that my method adheres to the principles of CBT.
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Billie Groom: It wasn't as though I studied CBT and then tweaked it to apply it to dogs.
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Billie Groom: So very interesting.
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Billie Groom: So then I had to, but that was sort of this oh-oh moment.
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Billie Groom: And then I started really studying CBT and aligning it more methodically with what I, with my method.
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Billie Groom: And yes, it is talk therapy, which we can do with dogs, but what's happening with the talk therapy is it is allowing the subject, whether that be human or any species, to reset their brain, reset the way that they perceive their surroundings.
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Billie Groom: Now, this doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to change their perception of liking or disliking a subject that's causing a behavior.
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Billie Groom: So you that that's more along the lines of counter conditioning, which is a very good method as well.
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Billie Groom: Counter conditioning aims to change the perception of the subject.
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Billie Groom: So if if they they don't like a big man with a baseball cap or something, just say, then then the goal of that is to to get them to think, oh, okay, maybe I do like big men with baseball caps.
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Billie Groom: CBT is more to change, huh?
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Billie Groom: Really have to necessarily like him, but I don't need to feel fear or anger or I don't need to react.
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Billie Groom: What can I do instead?
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Billie Groom: We don't provide choices, we induce decision making.
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Billie Groom: So once they start processing and recognize, it's the same with humans and there's different ways of doing that.
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Billie Groom: Now, with humans, you know, maybe they might journal to really write down why they can.
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Billie Groom: Can dogs journal?
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Billie Groom: No, but they can process.
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Billie Groom: And once we start inducing processing in different ways, not necessarily the big man with the baseball cap, but just inducing, hmm, things may be not going as always as exactly how we think they should in different situations.
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Billie Groom: Maybe that's not what I expected or maybe that's out of routine.
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Billie Groom: And being comfortable with that and making decisions that are okay and allow us to be okay with that, then we can start to take those to more challenging situations.
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Billie Groom: So it's more of a setting of the brain.
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Genie Joseph: Yeah.
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Genie Joseph: So it's almost like you're creating a little bit more of a foundation of safety.
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Genie Joseph: So the dog doesn't have to be on autopilot and their reactions.
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Billie Groom: Autopilot is a great word.
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Billie Groom: We use that a lot because when dogs are on autopilot, they tend to do the quote-unquote right behavior.
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Billie Groom: There's really no right or wrong behavior with CBT.
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Billie Groom: That's why we never use reinforcements, and there's never any negativity in the reinforcement at all.
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Billie Groom: There's no right or wrong behavior.
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Billie Groom: It's just simply how we feel and how we perceive.
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Billie Groom: When we're on autopilot, we do things people don't notice when we make decisions that are good and positive.
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Billie Groom: But when we're on autopilot and we instantaneously react or go into fear or our brain just soars and just reacts, people do notice.
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Billie Groom: So what we wanna do is exactly what you said, is work on the brain not going into autopilot and being okay with that in other situations.
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Billie Groom: So that's why it's very dependent on the individual dog and the person working with the dog and the setup and the lifestyle.
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Billie Groom: The methodology, the principles remain the same.
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Billie Groom: How it's applied is really dependent on the individual, which is really cool.
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Billie Groom: That's actually the fun part.
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Genie Joseph: Right, that it isn't one size fits all.
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Billie Groom: No, and you're kind of, it's really creative and really, it allows for a lot of creativity and dissecting into, okay, let's do this or let's take what worked there and apply it there.
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Billie Groom: What's the brain thinking?
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Billie Groom: Why is the dog doing that behavior?
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Billie Groom: Not based on something like an upbringing, but right in that moment, is it learned behavior?
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Billie Groom: Is it a phabbit?
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Billie Groom: Is it auto, as you said?
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Billie Groom: Is it lack of processing?
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Billie Groom: Too much processing?
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Billie Groom: Why?
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Billie Groom: Why?
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Billie Groom: And then sort of really creating the ability exercises.
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Billie Groom: It's exercise driven and those exercises are words.
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Billie Groom: So you do get the talk therapy because the words reset the brain and allow for that processing and decision making.
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Billie Groom: And how that's done is just so creative.
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Billie Groom: It's really interesting to see people really bond differently with their dog and really understand and see this cognition happening and see the dog processing and making different decisions.
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Billie Groom: And they start to see their dog differently.
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Billie Groom: They start to say, OK, yeah, that wasn't cognitive.
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Billie Groom: So cognition is really cognition and emotions is what I've studied a lot.
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Billie Groom: I took a PhD course at Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences, and it wasn't dog only, it was all sorts of animals.
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Billie Groom: But it's such an interesting realm.
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Billie Groom: Because they can make decisions based on their emotions and their cognitive abilities.
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Genie Joseph: Yeah.
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Genie Joseph: So when we see behavior, rather than looking at it as good or bad, we should understand that that's an emotion that's driving the behavior.
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Genie Joseph: And it's, in a sense, the best decision the animal can make in that moment based upon that's the emotion they're feeling, right?
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Billie Groom: That's exactly it.
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Genie Joseph: Do you feel that, like our latest rescue, a wonderful, wonderful dog and he's passed his therapy dog test.
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Genie Joseph: He's just extraordinary working with kids and with 911 operators and all this great stuff.
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Genie Joseph: So he's fabulous.
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Genie Joseph: But when I leave the house, he gets into anything and everything, mostly after food.
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Genie Joseph: But he's chewed up scissors, he's gone on counters, gotten bread out of the bread box, ate a whole loaf of bread the other day when I'm gone.
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Genie Joseph: Doesn't do this behavior when I'm home.
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Genie Joseph: Does he know the difference between, is it a right or wrong that he knows and just enjoys it?
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Genie Joseph: Or what would you say about that situation?
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Billie Groom: That is so interesting.
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Billie Groom: One thing that pops into my mind is it's so interesting when people see dogs in public.
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Billie Groom: Oh, I want my dog to be like that.
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Billie Groom: Often the dog is like that in public because they're doing exactly what they want to do.
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Billie Groom: They're with their human doing fun things, but then when they leave the dog at home.
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Billie Groom: So just like with people, they're not perfect all the time everywhere some dogs are, but that is more common than people think.
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Billie Groom: But yes, you're right.
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Billie Groom: We would have to determine is this dog doing this to make a point.
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Billie Groom: Maybe the dog has FOMO, not so much anxiety, but just wants to go because he feels you're going somewhere fun because it wouldn't occur to him that you're going food shopping, or to do a tour, or to work, something like that.
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Billie Groom: So sometimes they just think everywhere you go is fun and good, so why am I not going?
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Genie Joseph: Right.
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Billie Groom: And so it's more FOMO.
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Billie Groom: And sometimes it obviously is anxiety.
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Billie Groom: And sometimes the people don't know.
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Billie Groom: We're not sure.
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Billie Groom: But once we start working together and developing some exercises and allow for decision making, and all this is done, then wow, the person's at home.
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Billie Groom: You don't have to seriously leave and come back and leave and come back and repetition on that.
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Billie Groom: We're building these exercises that allow the dog to realize you...
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Billie Groom: For example, if the dog thought that you forgot him and that you're going somewhere that he should go and you forgot him, then we're working on his perception of you being aware of where he is and what you're doing and being part of that process.
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Billie Groom: So, those exercises induce that processing.
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Billie Groom: Instead of just going into panic mode, she's putting on their shoes, she's brushing her teeth, getting her lunch in the fridge, she's picking up that purse and their brain is just going into that hyper state.
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Billie Groom: We bring it down before it even goes up there and they can process that all that can occur and you're well aware that the dog is there.
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Billie Groom: So, that would be an example of if the dog thinks you just forgot them.
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Billie Groom: Sometimes, they're just doing it out of brattiness.
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Genie Joseph: Yeah.
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Billie Groom: Sometimes, it's like, well, maybe if I rip this apart, they won't leave again.
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Billie Groom: Well, that, you know, you can't just keep leaving and coming back because then you get caught in that funk.
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Billie Groom: So we literally have to change perception of the dog, of the dog, of the person, of that person being able to do things that maybe they don't like so much or maybe not what they expected.
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Billie Groom: Those are done completely, those exercises, not at all when you're leaving.
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Billie Groom: Those exercises are done completely at other times.
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Billie Groom: That's what separates it a little bit from conditioning.
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Billie Groom: Whereas CBT practices brain and emotion changing totally at other times.
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Genie Joseph: Uh-huh.
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Genie Joseph: Fascinating.
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Genie Joseph: Okay.
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Genie Joseph: So not just flood them with the experience or get them used to it.
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Genie Joseph: None of that.
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Genie Joseph: None of that.
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Billie Groom: No, none of that.
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Genie Joseph: I read this book once.
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Genie Joseph: I forgot the author's name, but she had an African gray parrot.
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Genie Joseph: And sometimes she would, when she wasn't there, the bird would do things that were wrong, the bad stuff around the house.
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Genie Joseph: And she had a recording of the bird and the bird was saying as he was doing the bad stuff, the bird was going, bad birdy, bad birdy, bad birdy, and continuing to enjoy tearing up something, whatever.
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Genie Joseph: I thought that was such a wonderful story, you know, that the bird understood this is bad.
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Genie Joseph: I like it, but you know, yeah.
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Billie Groom: Yeah, probably because the person came in and went, bad birdy, bad birdy, and they know that they're bad.
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Billie Groom: So it's interesting, it really is important to, because we might, we would pick different exercises.
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Billie Groom: And we also, if the dog simply doesn't know right from wrong and doesn't want to do wrong behavior, you would use conditioning, a positive reinforcement to training.
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Billie Groom: But if it's more based on knowing right from wrong or coming from an emotion or cognitive skills, then you would implement different exercises depending on the reason for the behavior.
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Billie Groom: So it's so important to really understand where the dog is coming from.
00:14:44.740 --> 00:14:48.200
Billie Groom: Just like with people, everybody wants to be understood.
00:14:48.200 --> 00:14:49.500
Genie Joseph: Everybody wants to be understood.
00:14:49.500 --> 00:14:50.300
Genie Joseph: That is absolutely true.
00:14:50.380 --> 00:14:53.920
Genie Joseph: And speaking of which, do you consider yourself an animal communicator?
00:14:53.920 --> 00:14:57.020
Genie Joseph: Do you communicate telepathically with animals?
00:14:57.020 --> 00:14:58.200
Billie Groom: No, not professionally.
00:14:58.200 --> 00:15:01.240
Billie Groom: No, CBT isn't animal communication.
00:15:01.240 --> 00:15:08.000
Billie Groom: But I have a lot of clients and work with a lot of who have used animal communicators.
00:15:08.000 --> 00:15:08.720
Billie Groom: I think they're great.
00:15:08.720 --> 00:15:12.900
Billie Groom: Often what we say balances well with each other.
00:15:12.900 --> 00:15:16.080
Billie Groom: It really provides that person with an overall.
00:15:19.200 --> 00:15:28.120
Billie Groom: But, no, CBT is an actual, canine CBT as well, is an actual methodology for working through it.
00:15:28.120 --> 00:15:37.300
Billie Groom: But often what an animal communicator will provide, provide some substance, you know, it works as a whole.
00:15:37.300 --> 00:15:38.040
Billie Groom: Insight.
00:15:38.040 --> 00:15:38.580
Billie Groom: Yeah.
00:15:38.580 --> 00:15:38.760
Genie Joseph: Yeah.
00:15:38.760 --> 00:15:39.720
Genie Joseph: Insight.
00:15:39.720 --> 00:15:39.980
Genie Joseph: Okay.
00:15:39.980 --> 00:15:40.300
Genie Joseph: Well, good.
00:15:40.300 --> 00:15:50.860
Genie Joseph: Well, we're going to take a short little break, but when we come back, I'm hoping you'll tell us some wonderful stories of the behaviors that maybe were mysterious to the person that you were able to resolve through these methods.
00:15:51.640 --> 00:15:52.120
Genie Joseph: All right.
00:15:52.120 --> 00:15:53.500
Genie Joseph: We'll be back in just a moment.
00:15:53.500 --> 00:15:54.840
Genie Joseph: Don't go anywhere.
00:15:57.540 --> 00:16:00.020
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00:17:11.842 --> 00:17:14.522
Genie Joseph: Welcome back to The Human-Animal Connection Podcast.
00:17:14.522 --> 00:17:18.582
Genie Joseph: I'm Jeanne Joseph, and I'm speaking with Billie Groom, PhD.
00:17:18.582 --> 00:17:30.302
Genie Joseph: So tell us some stories about maybe some clients who had some behaviors that their dogs were doing that were mysterious or challenging or not obvious, and how you helped them work through that.
00:17:30.302 --> 00:17:36.642
Billie Groom: I think a big thing with people is when their dog has a change in behavior.
00:17:36.642 --> 00:17:52.382
Billie Groom: So they've always liked dogs, or they've always liked people, or they've, you know, and then they just suddenly don't, or they have, it really is challenging for people, and they don't know what to do, and it can be very scary.
00:17:52.382 --> 00:18:00.002
Billie Groom: So, for example, they've just, you know, the dog is always like going to the off-leash dog park, or to dog daycare, and then suddenly doesn't.
00:18:00.002 --> 00:18:10.422
Billie Groom: So, I think that the goal that we need to take there, the approach that we take is to find out, is the dog just growing up and maybe not liking that activity anymore?
00:18:10.462 --> 00:18:12.362
Billie Groom: I like people to.
00:18:12.602 --> 00:18:21.102
Billie Groom: I don't enjoy going to the same public drinking establishments that I do now, at almost 60, that I did when I was 20.
00:18:21.102 --> 00:18:32.142
Billie Groom: So, you know, it could be, it could be, you know, one thing that is definite, which is not my area of expertise, you know, go to the veterinary and see if it's a physical, but let's assume that it's not.
00:18:32.142 --> 00:18:49.002
Billie Groom: So, something like that, where the dog just doesn't, doesn't, you know, so we would, we would be able to learn whether the, apply exercises that allow the dog to tell us whether they just don't want to go to those places anymore or whether something happened there.
00:18:49.002 --> 00:18:56.462
Billie Groom: And then also have that open mind of, if the dog wants to be in those places and does want to go, great.
00:18:56.462 --> 00:18:59.322
Billie Groom: We're not just going to avoid it and say, oh, your dog doesn't want to go in it.
00:18:59.322 --> 00:19:00.102
Billie Groom: Maybe they do.
00:19:00.102 --> 00:19:03.422
Billie Groom: Maybe there's just something that's happening at the dog park.
00:19:03.422 --> 00:19:10.042
Billie Groom: And we would apply these exercises that allow them to read their dog better.
00:19:10.042 --> 00:19:13.142
Billie Groom: Reading a dog is a big thing.
00:19:13.142 --> 00:19:15.822
Billie Groom: It's reading and learning about the dog.
00:19:15.822 --> 00:19:24.582
Billie Groom: And then from there, we can apply exercises that help that dog make different decisions.
00:19:24.582 --> 00:19:26.722
Billie Groom: There could be something even tiny.
00:19:26.722 --> 00:19:39.622
Billie Groom: I remember a client years and years ago, her dog was always good in the home and just always very relaxed and suddenly was just very stressed and panting, pacing.
00:19:39.622 --> 00:19:42.002
Billie Groom: And so we did some exercises.
00:19:42.002 --> 00:19:48.442
Billie Groom: And every time we did these exercises and we induced decision making, the dog would go under the dining room table.
00:19:48.442 --> 00:19:54.402
Billie Groom: And so we talked about that and she had had an area rug under the dining room table.
00:19:54.402 --> 00:19:59.402
Billie Groom: And she had taken that area rug out to get either cleaned or repaired or something.
00:20:00.582 --> 00:20:02.842
Billie Groom: It was a special area rug from somewhere.
00:20:03.002 --> 00:20:06.182
Billie Groom: So it took a while for that to get done.
00:20:06.182 --> 00:20:11.882
Billie Groom: And I just want, you know, is it that because the dog was telling us that and it wasn't through communication.
00:20:11.882 --> 00:20:15.322
Billie Groom: It was through exercises, CBT with decision making.
00:20:15.322 --> 00:20:19.582
Billie Groom: And she said, yes, she had taken the area rug away.
00:20:19.582 --> 00:20:28.202
Billie Groom: So we did exercises and we didn't wait for the area rug to come back because it was going to be a fairly lengthy time frame for that to happen.
00:20:28.622 --> 00:20:37.142
Billie Groom: So we did exercises that decreased anxiety with change in other situations and then that helped with that.
00:20:37.142 --> 00:20:41.962
Billie Groom: So the anxiety that took about, I think that took four days.
00:20:42.722 --> 00:20:50.562
Billie Groom: Once we started to apply those exercises that were specific for change, then the dog was fine.
00:20:50.562 --> 00:20:51.182
Genie Joseph: That's great.
00:20:51.182 --> 00:20:53.022
Billie Groom: It could be something very small.
00:20:53.082 --> 00:21:00.402
Billie Groom: And when people think of change, they commonly think of routine in their routine, you know, are they leaving for work at a different time?
00:21:00.402 --> 00:21:02.582
Billie Groom: It could be something very small.
00:21:02.582 --> 00:21:06.442
Billie Groom: Dogs might change their eating habits.
00:21:06.442 --> 00:21:07.402
Genie Joseph: Yeah, interesting.
00:21:07.402 --> 00:21:09.262
Billie Groom: You know, things like that.
00:21:09.262 --> 00:21:12.602
Genie Joseph: Now, can you tell me more about a dog's decision-making process?
00:21:12.602 --> 00:21:15.202
Genie Joseph: Because it seems like that's a big part of what you're working with.
00:21:15.202 --> 00:21:18.962
Genie Joseph: So tell us about that process for dogs.
00:21:18.962 --> 00:21:19.222
Billie Groom: Right.
00:21:19.222 --> 00:21:27.882
Billie Groom: So we establish verbal-driven exercises that induce processing and decision-making.
00:21:27.882 --> 00:21:31.482
Billie Groom: When a dog makes a decision, we're not...
00:21:31.842 --> 00:21:33.802
Billie Groom: It's a difference between choice and option.
00:21:33.802 --> 00:21:35.462
Billie Groom: So you'll hear a lot in the industry.
00:21:35.462 --> 00:21:41.202
Billie Groom: People will talk about, you know, we let a dog walk one way or the other, decide which way they're going to walk.
00:21:41.202 --> 00:21:48.982
Billie Groom: But, you know, choices of a blue toy or a red toy, or if they want to eat in a certain place or eat in another place.
00:21:49.442 --> 00:22:03.002
Billie Groom: Decision-making is different because we create a verbal indicator that the dog can make a decision, but there's no choice that we provide.
00:22:03.002 --> 00:22:05.782
Billie Groom: They can do multiple different things.
00:22:05.782 --> 00:22:10.762
Billie Groom: It's not based on a choice or an option, and there's no right or wrong.
00:22:10.762 --> 00:22:20.322
Billie Groom: The goal of that decision-making is often for us to learn what the dog is think, because people will commonly say, I'm not really sure why my dog, I'm not sure if my dog likes or dislikes dogs.
00:22:20.322 --> 00:22:26.182
Billie Groom: I'm not sure why my dog is doing a behavior or what he's thinking.
00:22:26.182 --> 00:22:33.602
Billie Groom: So we're not doing canine enrichment in the sense of providing positive options or choices.
00:22:33.602 --> 00:22:38.142
Billie Groom: Once we induce processing, we can then allow for that decision-making.
00:22:38.142 --> 00:22:44.802
Billie Groom: That decision-making may not be what we like, quote unquote, but it allows us to learn a lot about the dog.
00:22:45.062 --> 00:22:57.902
Billie Groom: And then we can really funnel those exercises down to address where the dog's mental, emotional block or challenges are.
00:22:57.902 --> 00:23:00.082
Genie Joseph: So how would you define a decision?
00:23:00.082 --> 00:23:03.002
Genie Joseph: And you give us an example of choice, the red ball or blue ball.
00:23:03.002 --> 00:23:04.642
Genie Joseph: But what is the decision?
00:23:04.642 --> 00:23:06.802
Genie Joseph: What would be an example of a decision?
00:23:06.802 --> 00:23:24.722
Billie Groom: So if we're not sure, for example, if a dog likes or dislikes dogs, but we know that they react, but we're not sure if they like or dislike, we would establish exercises in other areas that induce processing and decision, just around the home, that type of thing.
00:23:24.722 --> 00:23:33.802
Billie Groom: Decision making being, we would just do different things and they can thus react differently, but there's really nothing that they can do wrong.
00:23:33.802 --> 00:23:35.302
Billie Groom: It's in a positive environment.
00:23:35.302 --> 00:23:42.442
Billie Groom: It's in a positive, maybe a routine, like a feeding routine or a walking preparation routine, something that they like and they do.
00:23:43.282 --> 00:24:01.962
Billie Groom: Then when we would take those exercises and that ability to stop and process and be okay with things being different, we might go to somewhere that it is safe and there's, we're not focusing on correcting the reactivity.
00:24:01.962 --> 00:24:14.682
Billie Groom: When we apply those same exercises that allow for processing and decision making, when that happens, and people can't envision this, they're always like, Billie, you don't understand, my dog's going to react when he sees a dog, he's just going to go.
00:24:14.682 --> 00:24:16.082
Billie Groom: But it's interesting.
00:24:16.082 --> 00:24:23.062
Billie Groom: Sometimes they walk toward the dog, sometimes they walk away, sometimes they stay in there and continue processing.
00:24:23.062 --> 00:24:23.462
Genie Joseph: Yes.
00:24:23.462 --> 00:24:25.742
Billie Groom: Sometimes they go and sniff a tree.
00:24:27.082 --> 00:24:28.622
Billie Groom: There's no wrong that they can do.
00:24:28.622 --> 00:24:30.402
Billie Groom: Sometimes they do react.
00:24:30.402 --> 00:24:31.042
Genie Joseph: Yeah.
00:24:31.042 --> 00:24:42.942
Billie Groom: And we have to go back to the drawing board and maybe do some more exercises that allow for greater processing so that that reaction isn't, the dog doesn't feel the need to do that reaction.
00:24:42.942 --> 00:25:01.062
Billie Groom: But if the dog decides to walk toward the dog and is expressing an interest or continuing to process, we're going to take a different route than if the dog looks at the dog and then on that verbal decision-making cue decides, I'm just going to walk over here or I'm going to go sniff a tree.
00:25:01.062 --> 00:25:06.542
Billie Groom: Going to go to, we're going to take a different route than if the dog had expressed an interest in the dog.
00:25:06.542 --> 00:25:09.322
Billie Groom: Now, now we're going a different direction.
00:25:09.822 --> 00:25:11.842
Billie Groom: But we don't pre-decide that.
00:25:11.842 --> 00:25:12.662
Genie Joseph: Right.
00:25:12.662 --> 00:25:17.722
Billie Groom: Which is a bit challenging because, well, I want my dog to like dogs.
00:25:17.722 --> 00:25:20.662
Billie Groom: Well, we can't always make people like everybody.
00:25:20.682 --> 00:25:23.022
Billie Groom: We can't make people.
00:25:23.022 --> 00:25:35.402
Billie Groom: So once dogs realize that they're not being told whether they have to like a dog or like a person, they're just being allowed to make that decision on what they want to do and that's okay.
00:25:35.402 --> 00:25:36.822
Billie Groom: It's like someone going to a dinner party.
00:25:37.262 --> 00:25:38.782
Billie Groom: You don't have to like everybody there.
00:25:38.782 --> 00:25:40.202
Billie Groom: You can leave if you want to leave.
00:25:40.202 --> 00:25:42.202
Billie Groom: You can avoid the people you don't like.
00:25:42.202 --> 00:25:46.222
Billie Groom: You can spend time talking to different people or doing different things.
00:25:46.222 --> 00:25:53.582
Billie Groom: And then once you realize that and that you have that ability to make those decisions, those choices aren't put in front of you.
00:25:53.582 --> 00:26:00.322
Billie Groom: No one said to you, you can go either to the food table or you can talk to this person or you can go.
00:26:00.322 --> 00:26:02.702
Billie Groom: No one's giving you're making those on your own.
00:26:03.742 --> 00:26:10.982
Billie Groom: The second thing that CBT does is we start to see intrinsic rewards, which is different.
00:26:10.982 --> 00:26:16.622
Billie Groom: There's no other method in conditioning methods don't rely on intrinsic rewards.
00:26:16.622 --> 00:26:21.022
Billie Groom: And the interesting thing about intrinsic rewards is we can't create those.
00:26:21.022 --> 00:26:22.702
Billie Groom: Those happen inherently.
00:26:22.702 --> 00:26:23.302
Genie Joseph: Right.
00:26:23.302 --> 00:26:24.362
Billie Groom: Same with people.
00:26:24.362 --> 00:26:36.222
Billie Groom: It's just a feeling in your brain, your emotions, your physical, your emotions like that feeling of not being afraid, not having to react, not having to feel fear or anxiety.
00:26:36.222 --> 00:26:50.682
Billie Groom: And then once that's repeated and that feeling is repeated, and you don't feel the need to reach for a cigarette or to panic or to feel fear, when something happens, you start to do it more and it becomes an intrinsic reward.
00:26:50.682 --> 00:26:56.282
Billie Groom: We do start to see this in dogs, which is something that's very innovative and new in the industry.
00:26:56.282 --> 00:26:57.422
Genie Joseph: Very exciting.
00:26:57.422 --> 00:26:57.582
Genie Joseph: Yeah.
00:26:58.022 --> 00:27:02.262
Billie Groom: Only reach that with a psychotherapeutic method.
00:27:02.262 --> 00:27:09.222
Genie Joseph: So I think in a lot of ways what you're talking about it, this gives a dog a sense of autonomy when they can make their own decisions.
00:27:09.222 --> 00:27:29.842
Genie Joseph: And that's of course the one thing they don't have in a shelter environment and God bless shelters for saving dogs, but I'm just saying that dogs, all of their choices are taken away from them, all of the opportunities to choose when they eat, sleep, poop, whatever, interact, they can't get away from the sense, they can't get away from the noise, they have no choices, they can't make any decisions that make their life better.
00:27:29.842 --> 00:27:34.942
Genie Joseph: And that can result in a high degree of stress and even trauma, you know, in certain dogs.
00:27:34.942 --> 00:27:44.022
Billie Groom: So, which is why to their, you know, they are trying to incorporate enrichment and some choices, which is good.
00:27:44.022 --> 00:27:49.302
Billie Groom: But again, it's a different feeling in the brain of actually having autonomy.
00:27:49.302 --> 00:27:49.642
Billie Groom: You're right.
00:27:49.642 --> 00:27:50.202
Billie Groom: An agency.
00:27:50.722 --> 00:27:51.162
Genie Joseph: Yeah.
00:27:51.162 --> 00:27:51.342
Genie Joseph: Yeah.
00:27:51.342 --> 00:28:00.582
Genie Joseph: Which is, I guess, you know, all beings want to be able to feel that they could make decisions, choices that have positive impacts on their life.
00:28:00.582 --> 00:28:02.702
Genie Joseph: It feels good.
00:28:02.702 --> 00:28:09.422
Billie Groom: People that they care about, or beings or species that they care about, understand what they're feeling and thinking.
00:28:09.422 --> 00:28:19.922
Billie Groom: And so our decision and our direction isn't based on right and wrong behavior or completing a task or this is what it, which is again, it's challenging for people.
00:28:20.562 --> 00:28:23.782
Billie Groom: You know, Billie, we want our dog to not bark.
00:28:23.782 --> 00:28:26.822
Billie Groom: No, you want your dog to not feel the need to bark.
00:28:26.822 --> 00:28:28.062
Genie Joseph: Beautiful distinction.
00:28:28.062 --> 00:28:29.422
Genie Joseph: Beautiful distinction.
00:28:29.422 --> 00:28:31.262
Genie Joseph: Yeah, that's excellent.
00:28:31.262 --> 00:28:32.602
Genie Joseph: Well, how do you work with people?
00:28:32.602 --> 00:28:34.062
Genie Joseph: How can they get a hold of you?
00:28:34.062 --> 00:28:48.242
Billie Groom: Well, I actually have moved forward to opening the with my team, which consists of scientists and veterinarians and psychologists and people that are extremely good at their profession.
00:28:48.562 --> 00:28:51.642
Billie Groom: It's the Institute of Canine Psychotherapy.
00:28:51.642 --> 00:29:02.082
Billie Groom: And so that offers courses, some for pet parents, a lot for professionals in the industry, so that more professionals can learn multiple psychotherapeutic methods.
00:29:02.082 --> 00:29:14.422
Billie Groom: But there's also some really interesting courses in there on brain development, in particular with the adolescent stage, molecular development provided by scientists who are experts in that field.
00:29:14.542 --> 00:29:20.122
Billie Groom: It's a really, it's just, you know, pet parents can take it.
00:29:20.122 --> 00:29:32.222
Billie Groom: But what's also going to happen is that the professionals that take these courses will be very highly skilled and prepared to work with the pet parents.
00:29:33.342 --> 00:29:40.042
Genie Joseph: And a lot of people, they maybe they got a puppy and at about age two, and the problems show up and they can't fix them and off they go to the shelter.
00:29:40.042 --> 00:29:41.242
Genie Joseph: You'll see a lot of shelter dogs.
00:29:41.682 --> 00:29:44.942
Genie Joseph: All the kennel cards say two, two, two.
00:29:44.942 --> 00:29:46.122
Billie Groom: That's an interesting point.
00:29:46.122 --> 00:29:49.402
Billie Groom: Adolescence actually starts at around six to eight months.
00:29:49.402 --> 00:29:55.242
Billie Groom: So a lot of it, that brain development in adolescence is six to eight months to two years.
00:29:55.242 --> 00:30:05.382
Billie Groom: The reason there's a lot of two-year-olds in the shelter is because people kind of tolerated and try different things and try different conditioning methods.
00:30:05.382 --> 00:30:15.882
Billie Groom: So canine cognitive behavioral therapy has prevented a lot of adolescent dogs, thousands, tens of thousands, from going into shelters, which is so the shelters don't even see the dogs.
00:30:15.882 --> 00:30:17.202
Billie Groom: They don't see those stats.
00:30:17.202 --> 00:30:18.242
Billie Groom: And same with the rescue.
00:30:18.242 --> 00:30:22.262
Billie Groom: They don't have those because the dogs never went there, which is great.
00:30:22.262 --> 00:30:29.902
Billie Groom: But then what happens is sometimes the dog is home during that adolescent stage and brought back or still there at two years old.
00:30:29.902 --> 00:30:44.122
Billie Groom: And then what happens is as that brain develops at two years old, sometimes those some of the problems dissipate or more so, they don't dissipate on their own without some amount of help and addressing.
00:30:44.122 --> 00:30:51.502
Billie Groom: But some of the other methods can also, you know, with the brain development can click in.
00:30:51.502 --> 00:30:58.362
Billie Groom: So you start to get just a different brain development at two once again.
00:30:58.362 --> 00:31:11.642
Billie Groom: So that's why sometimes it's that age two because they sort of been adopted, they brought back or kind of, you know, maybe surrendered for the first time at around 20 months when the people think, ah, nothing works.
00:31:12.862 --> 00:31:29.722
Billie Groom: So it would be great if there were more professionals in whatever level, not just not just trainers, but professionals in the industry and people who have an impact, have this interest in other psychotherapeutic methods that are non harmful.
00:31:29.962 --> 00:31:32.682
Billie Groom: And it would just, it would really make a difference.
00:31:32.682 --> 00:31:37.382
Billie Groom: So that's, that's what ICP Institute of Canine Psychotherapy is doing.
00:31:37.382 --> 00:31:41.762
Billie Groom: And it's, it's great that the interest is phenomenal.
00:31:41.762 --> 00:31:42.622
Genie Joseph: Right.
00:31:42.622 --> 00:31:45.442
Genie Joseph: Well, Billie, I'm so happy that you're doing this wonderful work.
00:31:45.442 --> 00:31:54.902
Genie Joseph: Thank you for saving so many dogs from shelters and for educating the public about what can be done when these situations that may be confusing and baffling to them.
00:31:54.902 --> 00:31:55.782
Genie Joseph: So thank you.
00:31:55.782 --> 00:31:56.782
Billie Groom: Thank you so much, Jeannie.
00:31:56.902 --> 00:32:03.202
Billie Groom: I really appreciate this opportunity to connect with you and to share and to connect with your, your listeners.
00:32:03.202 --> 00:32:03.582
Genie Joseph: Yeah.
00:32:03.582 --> 00:32:05.682
Genie Joseph: I know we'll be doing many more things together.
00:32:05.682 --> 00:32:07.622
Genie Joseph: So I look forward to that collaboration.
00:32:07.622 --> 00:32:11.102
Billie Groom: Yes, you are actually doing a webinar on ICP.
00:32:11.102 --> 00:32:12.722
Billie Groom: So I'm excited about that.
00:32:12.722 --> 00:32:13.922
Genie Joseph: Yes, we're going to be talking about it.
00:32:13.922 --> 00:32:15.822
Billie Groom: We're super excited about it.
00:32:15.822 --> 00:32:21.422
Genie Joseph: Yeah, we're talking about wholesome canine cuisine because diet does factor into behavior.
00:32:21.422 --> 00:32:25.742
Genie Joseph: And so it's one of the factors that can help support dogs feeling better and acting better.
00:32:26.902 --> 00:32:29.182
Billie Groom: Yes, and also on therapy dogs.
00:32:29.182 --> 00:32:30.202
Genie Joseph: Yes, exactly.
00:32:30.202 --> 00:32:31.742
Genie Joseph: All right, on therapy dogs.
00:32:31.742 --> 00:32:34.282
Genie Joseph: I forgot what we were doing for a second.
00:32:34.642 --> 00:32:36.002
Genie Joseph: I'm sorry, I got confused.
00:32:36.002 --> 00:32:41.842
Billie Groom: No, that's okay, because we're going to do the nutrition one as well, because they're both so important and everything works together as a whole.
00:32:41.842 --> 00:32:43.762
Billie Groom: So that's wonderful.
00:32:43.762 --> 00:32:45.342
Billie Groom: Yeah, we look forward to that.
00:32:45.342 --> 00:32:45.722
Genie Joseph: All right.
00:32:45.722 --> 00:32:46.722
Genie Joseph: Well, thank you, Billie Groom.
00:32:46.722 --> 00:32:47.402
Genie Joseph: We'll see you soon.
00:32:48.422 --> 00:32:49.222
Billie Groom: Thanks, Jeanne.
00:32:49.222 --> 00:32:49.382
Genie Joseph: Bye-bye.
00:32:49.382 --> 00:32:50.582
Genie Joseph: Bye-bye.
00:32:50.582 --> 00:32:53.682
Genie Joseph: Thank you for being a part of The Human-Animal Connection.
00:32:53.682 --> 00:32:55.822
Genie Joseph: We'll see you in the next episode.
00:32:55.822 --> 00:32:57.662
Genie Joseph: We'll say aloha for now.
00:33:02.022 --> 00:33:05.322
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