Puppy Kindergarten: The New Science of Raising a Great Dog
This week Michelle Fern is joined by Vanessa Woods, co-author of Puppy Kindergarten: The New Science of Raising a Great Dog. Written with Brian Hare, Puppy Kindergarten is the first book about raising puppies to be written by evolutionary scientists - moreover, Duke University’s Puppy Kindergarten is the first large-scale study tracking puppy development since 1950.
This husband-and-wife team, along with a retired service dog named Congo, have meticulously observed and documented the growth of one hundred and one puppies at the Duke Puppy Kindergarten. Their mission was to unravel what it truly takes to raise a great dog, and the findings are as enlightening as they are charming.
Listen to Episode #330 Now:
BIO:
Vanessa Woods is the Director of the Duke Puppy Kindergarten and an award winning writer and journalist. In 2010, her book Bonobo Handshake: A memoir of Love and Adventure in Congo won the Thomas Lowell award for non fiction and her children’s book, It’s true, Space turns you into Spaghetti was named an Acclaimed Book by the Royal Society in 2007. Her books have been translated into 12 languages. Woods received the Australiasian Science award for journalism in 2004.
In 2022, Vanessa was voted a Duke icon by the Duke community and selected by a special committee at The Chronicle, an award which recognizes "kindness, passion, talent or intellect”.
Woods and Hare live together with their dog in North Carolina. Their first book together, The Genius of Dogs was a New York Times Bestseller, and their second book Survival of the Friendliest was an international bestseller and won the ‘Smart Book of the Year 2022’.
Transcript:
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Announcer: This is Pet Life Radio.
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Vanessa Woods: Let's talk pets.
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Michelle Fern: Hello, pet lovers, welcome to Best Bets for Pets.
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Michelle Fern: I'm your show host, Michelle Fern.
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Michelle Fern: We're going to talk about a book today, but this is not like any other book.
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Michelle Fern: On Best Bets, I've had a lot of different kinds of books.
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Michelle Fern: This is probably one of the most interesting books I've read that deals with part of the book's title is The New Science of Raising a Great Dog, but it's so interesting.
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Michelle Fern: It's science, a lot of science, but very interesting.
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Michelle Fern: So stay tuned.
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Michelle Fern: We're going to talk to one of the co-authors all about the book and what the great work that they're doing in raising puppies.
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Michelle Fern: Stay tuned.
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Michelle Fern: We'll be right back.
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Michelle Fern: Hey, Michelle Fern here, and you know saving cats is near and dear to my heart.
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Michelle Fern: Did you know that there is an estimated 70 to 100 million free roaming cats in the United States?
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Michelle Fern: And without spay neuter, that number will keep growing.
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Michelle Fern: Not only does spay neuter mainly reduce the community cat population, but it also keeps cats healthier.
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Michelle Fern: Scooter, the neutered cat, is on a mission to give cats an extra life by making it hip to be sniffed.
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Michelle Fern: Visit his website, givethemten.org, to help pioneer a better world for cats.
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Michelle Fern: That's GiveThemten, spelled out, T-E-N, dot org.
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Announcer: Let's talk pets on petliferadio.com.
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Michelle Fern: Welcome back, everyone.
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Michelle Fern: I'd like to welcome Vanessa Woods.
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Michelle Fern: She is the co-author of Puppy Kindergarten, The New Science of Raising a Great Dog.
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Michelle Fern: She is a research scientist at Duke University.
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Michelle Fern: Welcome, Vanessa.
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Vanessa Woods: Thank you so much for having me on the show, Michelle.
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Vanessa Woods: It's great to talk to you.
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Michelle Fern: I'm so happy to have you on.
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Michelle Fern: This book was fascinating, and I've had a lot of books on Best Bets since, oh my gosh, doing it almost 14 years.
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Michelle Fern: You know, you're a scientist.
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Michelle Fern: There's a lot of research and science in this book, but it's very interesting and it's amazing what you uncover in this book.
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Michelle Fern: I'm getting ahead of myself.
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Michelle Fern: Can you tell us a little bit of background on yourself?
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Vanessa Woods: Sure.
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Vanessa Woods: So I helped run the Duke Puppy Kindergarten, and so we are a project that is trying to help graduate more service dogs.
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Vanessa Woods: But along the way, we realized that service dogs have a lot of qualities that people are looking for in their pets, in their pet dogs, because I think we've reached this real cultural shift in our society where dogs and cats, and other pets have transitioned from having specific jobs to now being part of the family, and that comes with wonderful benefits, but also a lot of challenges.
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Vanessa Woods: So we just wrote this book to help people with what we've learned.
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Michelle Fern: What is the Duke Canine Cognition Center?
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Vanessa Woods: The Duke Canine Cognition Center is part of Duke University, and we study canine cognition there.
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Vanessa Woods: So we study how dogs think, and how they see the world, and how they solve problems, and how this helps us help dogs in real life.
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Michelle Fern: I read your entire book.
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Michelle Fern: I have to say, I'm a voracious reader, but I saw the cover and I thought, oh, another science book, this is going to be.
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Michelle Fern: And as I started reading it, I was thinking, I thought, oh my gosh, this is pretty fascinating.
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Michelle Fern: And I like psychology, but even if you don't like psychology, it's really fascinating what you uncover.
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Michelle Fern: I know this is probably challenging, but can you describe to everybody listening, just very kind of top level, what is Puppy Kindergarten?
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Vanessa Woods: So Puppy Kindergarten, it's also, it's kind of like not really a place.
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Vanessa Woods: Like we do have the Puppy Kindergarten at Duke University, but it's more a philosophy.
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Vanessa Woods: It's a philosophy of raising dogs that's based on the scientific work that we've done, that kind of recognizes that what we want from dogs now is different to what they were traditionally bred for.
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Vanessa Woods: So we were working to uncover, is there a breed or group of dogs that best fits into this new lifestyle?
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Vanessa Woods: That our dogs go everywhere with us now?
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Vanessa Woods: Is there a breed or a group of dogs that love strangers, that won't chew up and destroy your furniture while we're away?
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Vanessa Woods: I mean, we have all these space that we create for dogs to be in our lives right now, but we also have this certain set of expectations.
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Vanessa Woods: And so, you know, our goal was like, well, what is the breed or group of dogs that we're looking for?
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Vanessa Woods: And it's really, it's not what you might think, is, you know, everybody's got their breed of dog that they think is, you know, the best breed and based on a family dog or a dog they've loved.
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Vanessa Woods: But, you know, what we found is that it's actually service dogs.
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Vanessa Woods: And it's not that service dogs are particularly smarter or even like more trainable than other dogs.
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Vanessa Woods: It's just the secrets of their success is really that they just, they don't have something called stranger danger.
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Vanessa Woods: And really that is the key to everything else that we see on how service dogs move about the world and how they help people.
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Michelle Fern: You mentioned breeds.
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Michelle Fern: So you work with Can Companions to work with their dogs so that they get to a level to where they can go to assist people.
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Michelle Fern: They use mostly breed of, I think you said labs and retrievers.
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Michelle Fern: Why that particular dog?
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Vanessa Woods: So Can Companions is the largest service dog organization in the US.
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Vanessa Woods: They do basically every kind of service dog except for seeing eye dogs.
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Vanessa Woods: And yes, the breed that they use is Labrador Retriever Golden Retrievers.
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Vanessa Woods: But actually, because they have this close breeding population, they have actually created almost a new breed of dogs.
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Vanessa Woods: So we also work with military dogs, and they are Labrador Retriever Golden Retrievers too, but they could not be a more different population from their Canine Companions dogs.
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Vanessa Woods: I mean, these dogs are exceptionally calm.
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Vanessa Woods: As I said, I think one of the most important things is they don't have stranger danger, so they're really attracted to strangers.
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Vanessa Woods: They have a higher level of circulating oxytocin in their brains.
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Vanessa Woods: And so I think in trying to provide this perfect dog that can help people, Canine Companions have really created a new dog with that really fits in to the lifestyle of what we all want from our dogs, and that is to be able to sit nicely and calmly in a cafe, to be able to greet children warmly and be kind to the elderly, who can behave themselves in public spaces.
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Vanessa Woods: So our job is that it's actually really tough to be a service dog, and we take these group of puppies, and what we're trying to do is we're trying to help graduate more.
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Vanessa Woods: So we sort of like test them every two weeks on this set of cognitive games to see if we can kind of help predict what it is about a puppy that allows them to be these great dogs.
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Michelle Fern: So in reading your book, so every semester, you have new puppies coming in.
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Michelle Fern: And I know you wrote the book during the pandemic and even still had a puppy class, a very small puppy class at your home, which must have been a challenge.
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Michelle Fern: I can only imagine.
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Michelle Fern: So you have a puppy class and you also utilize undergraduates, volunteers to help.
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Michelle Fern: And you're studying the cognition of the puppies to determine their placement.
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Michelle Fern: That's a very vague assumption.
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Vanessa Woods: Yeah, no, no, no, that's about right.
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Vanessa Woods: So all these sort of service dogs and working dogs, they all kind of have the same problem.
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Vanessa Woods: It's that, you know, training is a really big part of it, but it's not enough.
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Vanessa Woods: And so, you know, half, only half the dogs really make it.
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Vanessa Woods: And, you know, there are millions of people in the US who could be one of these service dogs.
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Vanessa Woods: And so what we're trying to do is we're trying to kind of like look at the cognitive skills that predict success in service dogs and see if we can sort of instead of waiting for two years to see which puppy is going to make it, we want to kind of like look at a puppy and look at their cognitive profile when they're really young, like 10 to 12 weeks old, and see if we can make predictions about who is most likely good.
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Michelle Fern: You know, in reading your book, what came to mind is, you know, if you think about, if you know, for those listening and for anyone that's ever taught, anyone, whether you're managing and training people or whether you've taught in a classroom, you have people that will do better, you know, in understanding certain things than others.
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Michelle Fern: So, essentially, that's what you're doing with the puppies through different games.
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Vanessa Woods: That's exactly right.
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Vanessa Woods: And one of the big lessons that we've learned in Puppy Kindergarten is that every puppy is an individual.
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Vanessa Woods: And, you know, and this is like funny for us because we're used to studying dogs as a population.
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Vanessa Woods: Like, what can dogs do and not could do?
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Vanessa Woods: But like the real lesson, and we've had 101 puppies through the kindergarten that we've tested longitudinally.
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Vanessa Woods: And what we've learned is that every single one is an individual.
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Vanessa Woods: They have, you know, different cognitive profiles.
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Vanessa Woods: We have puppy geniuses.
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Vanessa Woods: And then we have puppies who like couldn't pass the test that pigeons can pass.
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Vanessa Woods: And everything in between.
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Vanessa Woods: And I think that that's what dog odors already know is that, you know, every dog is unique.
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Vanessa Woods: And what makes them unique is basically their cognition, their cognition and their temperament, which together kind of like forms their personality.
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Vanessa Woods: And what we're trying to do is we're like, well, what is this cognitive profile that allows a puppy to then grow in to this amazing dog that eventually ends up helping someone with a disability or with like veterans with PTSD?
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Vanessa Woods: And, you know, along the way, we realize that, okay, every dog doesn't need to be a service dog, but there is something about service dogs that make them just great dogs.
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Vanessa Woods: And so what we're trying to do with the Puppy Kindergarten is to kind of like share the lessons we've learned from, you know, raising and testing all like just dozens of puppies.
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Vanessa Woods: You know, what people can do to kind of like help them.
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Vanessa Woods: We did really the first large scale study of comparing different ways of raising them to see, you know, who would be more successful.
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Vanessa Woods: We have kind of like tested them longitudinally so we can see which, when different cognitive skills emerge, because, you know, the puppy brain is not like a light bulb.
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Vanessa Woods: They just don't kind of like wake up in the morning and everything's there.
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Vanessa Woods: It's like different areas of intelligence come on at different times, and then they learn to master these intelligences at different times.
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Vanessa Woods: So it was just like a super fun, years long journey into the puppy mind.
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Michelle Fern: And what an interesting mind it is.
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Michelle Fern: You also have something called, or you have a site called Dognition.
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Michelle Fern: What is that?
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Vanessa Woods: So Dognition is like a citizen science platform where people can go and they can test their dogs.
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Vanessa Woods: And they can compare their dogs compared to other dogs.
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Vanessa Woods: And so basically what they do is they sign up and they play the same kind of games that we do at the Puppy Kindergarten, but they play with their own dogs at home.
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Vanessa Woods: And at the end, they can see where their dogs compare to other dogs in these different cognitive dimensions that we found are really important to success later on in service dogs.
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Vanessa Woods: So things like, you know, how they read your body language, how much eye contact they make.
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Vanessa Woods: Eye contact is like a really important one actually.
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Vanessa Woods: And yeah, we've had just tens of thousands of dogs participate.
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Vanessa Woods: And the really exciting thing is that we've been able to make discoveries about groups of dogs that we hadn't really been able to do before, just because of the large scale data that's been collected.
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Michelle Fern: Okay.
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Michelle Fern: And in your book, you kind of answered this, but I still want to ask this because I think there might be more to it.
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Michelle Fern: You said that Puppy Kindergarten isn't really a place, it's a philosophy.
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Vanessa Woods: Yeah, yeah, that's right.
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Vanessa Woods: And I think what we were trying to say by that is that everybody can, everyone can have a puppy kindergarten.
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Vanessa Woods: And the philosophy of the puppy kindergarten is that, this unrecognizing this cultural shift that is happening with our dogs right now, which is really kind of like following the cultural shift that has happened with our kids.
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Vanessa Woods: Like it used to be, you know, kids and dogs, they would just like roam the neighborhood.
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Vanessa Woods: They would run around and even, you know, in my childhood, and I'm sure your childhood too, is that dogs had, they were just, they were free range and they had a lot of jobs.
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Vanessa Woods: Like they had jobs that they were supposed to do.
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Vanessa Woods: We wanted our dogs to guard our properties, our families, our resources, our livestock.
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Vanessa Woods: But now the jobs of dogs are very different.
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Vanessa Woods: Like just like our children, they're a lot closer to us.
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Vanessa Woods: We keep a lot closer eye on them.
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Vanessa Woods: There's a lot more structure to their lives.
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Vanessa Woods: Dogs don't just get to roam all over, roam neighborhood and highways, just getting into whatever they want.
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Vanessa Woods: They're just very much part of our family.
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Vanessa Woods: Just trying to understand how we adjust to having dogs in this way, and the way we raise service dogs are really aligned to creating the kind of dogs that really best fit into our lifestyle, like dogs that are friendly with other dogs and other people.
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Vanessa Woods: We don't need dogs to guard our houses right now.
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Vanessa Woods: What we need is we need dogs who are friendly and able to go into public spaces, who are relaxed and calm or in new situations, that are able to do everything from jog on a loose leash to just sit calmly under the desk all day.
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Vanessa Woods: So it's about trying to help people raise a dog that really fits into these expectations and the privilege that we're asking of them.
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Michelle Fern: That is so true because I think back of the dog we had when I was a child was kind of, and this was true of a lot of families back then, the dog was the watchdog.
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Michelle Fern: It wasn't the family pet.
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Michelle Fern: Now, if that dog was the dog I had as a child was the family dog, the watchdog would not be in my bed or had a special place in the house.
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Michelle Fern: That's all the only place he was in.
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Michelle Fern: I think back to that now and I cringe because the dogs I've had since then, they're my kids, like her babies.
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Michelle Fern: But we're going to take a short break and we're going to be right back.
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Michelle Fern: Welcome back, everyone.
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Michelle Fern: We're talking to Vanessa Woods.
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Michelle Fern: She is the co-author of Puppy Kindergarten.
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Michelle Fern: And so we're talking about how dogs have changed over the years and how we're pet parents now, where our dogs are our kids, you know, we make them food.
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Michelle Fern: We've come a long way from since that dogs were, I guess, I think, what about 1950s dogs became less working dogs and became more in the home, but they were still given working jobs, like watchdog or something of that nature.
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Vanessa Woods: Yeah, that's exactly right.
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Vanessa Woods: So if our dog was just kind of like ran around the neighborhood, sometimes had fleas, used to taste bites and cars and everything, and that used to not be a problem if they kind of like ate something bad and then were throwing up for days, it was like it wasn't a big deal.
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Vanessa Woods: But now we need dogs to, you know, they're just in the home much more often, you know, they're not really let out of our sight, they're not allowed to roam around, they're like, you know, they need to be kept on leash.
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Vanessa Woods: And so as that, you know, you kind of have everything at the same time, like you can't have a dog who guards the house, but is also really welcoming to strangers, to strange people and to children.
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Vanessa Woods: You know, there's issues with dog aggression and dog separation, anxiety and dog behavior.
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Vanessa Woods: And I think that, you know, all these problems that we really saw exacerbated by the pandemic as kind of like this sort of like this this awakening moment where, you know, we have to understand the cultural shift that is happening, is that dogs are following the trajectory of our children.
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Vanessa Woods: And then, you know, and I guess kind of like leveling the playing field to make it fair for them.
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Vanessa Woods: And that means that, you know, you can't expect everything all at the same time of your dog.
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Vanessa Woods: Like you can't have a dog that's an alarm system, who guards things, who, you know, you know, guards resources and protects your family, but then also have a dog that you just take to a cafe and then just kind of like, let's, you know, expect to sit there while people come up to them and pet them and are friendly.
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Vanessa Woods: So it really is this, just this realizing that our expectations of dogs have changed and then, you know, making it easy for them to be to be these new family members that we're asking of them.
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Michelle Fern: I couldn't agree more.
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Michelle Fern: Well said.
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Michelle Fern: And it's so true.
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Michelle Fern: I mean, thank goodness now we have better technology that for watching our homes and our dogs don't have to do that job.
00:19:15.813 --> 00:19:20.673
Michelle Fern: And in most cases, you know, they can be the wonderful dogs they are.
00:19:20.673 --> 00:19:21.473
Michelle Fern: Okay.
00:19:21.473 --> 00:19:28.833
Michelle Fern: What's important for the pet parents to understand about their dogs with regards to cognition?
00:19:28.833 --> 00:19:32.433
Vanessa Woods: Oh, there's so many, so many things, so many fun things.
00:19:32.593 --> 00:19:46.733
Vanessa Woods: I think that to understand that different skills come online at different times, and so the expectations that we have of our puppies kind of can really be informed by this.
00:19:47.233 --> 00:19:56.313
Vanessa Woods: So, for instance, like the puppies we've tested, like when they arrive at like eight weeks old, just in general, they just have terrible memories.
00:19:56.313 --> 00:20:00.753
Vanessa Woods: So they can't remember something that they saw 20 seconds ago.
00:20:01.373 --> 00:20:06.513
Vanessa Woods: And, you know, this really doesn't start to mature until between like 12 to 14 weeks.
00:20:06.513 --> 00:20:17.813
Vanessa Woods: So when you're like, kind of like your puppy first comes home, and you're really excited to teach them all these things, you have to realize that their short-term working memories are like not fully developed yet.
00:20:17.813 --> 00:20:19.973
Vanessa Woods: And the same goes for things like self-control.
00:20:20.493 --> 00:20:35.333
Vanessa Woods: Self-control, like their inhibitory control, also, you know, similarly come, you know, it starts developing at about 13 weeks, and then really starts to, you know, really sort of like what we call maturation at about 16 weeks.
00:20:35.333 --> 00:20:41.613
Vanessa Woods: So, you know, it's like these different cognitive skills are coming online at different times.
00:20:41.613 --> 00:20:45.793
Vanessa Woods: They're kind of like light bulbs, different light bulbs that are flickering, and then they stay on.
00:20:45.793 --> 00:20:55.473
Vanessa Woods: And so understanding how the puppy mind works really is going to help people with their expectations of their puppies and what they can and can't do.
00:20:55.473 --> 00:21:01.733
Vanessa Woods: And then also in some ways, you know, taking these skills and being able to enhance them.
00:21:01.733 --> 00:21:11.933
Vanessa Woods: Like, for instance, the puppies that we've had in the puppy kindergarten, one thing we found that we can really adjust is the amount of eye contact they make.
00:21:11.933 --> 00:21:15.173
Vanessa Woods: So eye contact is a really important bonding mechanism.
00:21:15.273 --> 00:21:19.473
Vanessa Woods: It's actually an important bonding mechanism between parents and their babies.
00:21:19.473 --> 00:21:24.153
Vanessa Woods: And dogs seem to have really hijacked this bonding pathway, which I think is really funny.
00:21:24.153 --> 00:21:30.993
Vanessa Woods: And so dogs now, you know, sometimes parents will see their dog just staring at them for no reason.
00:21:30.993 --> 00:21:40.393
Vanessa Woods: And the reason why they're doing this is because it raises their oxytocin, which then raises your oxytocin, and it creates this kind of like bonding loop that we see.
00:21:40.393 --> 00:22:00.113
Vanessa Woods: And this has been really important for things like owner satisfaction with their dogs, you know, owners who have dogs who make more eye contact, report having just like a stronger bond and higher pet satisfaction is really important from adoption from shelters, that dogs who make more eye contact are adopted more quickly.
00:22:00.113 --> 00:22:19.013
Vanessa Woods: And so what we've found is with puppies, just by playing this like funny little game for five minutes every two weeks really increases the amount of eye contact they make until they're about 20 weeks old, which is sort of when the puppy brain has almost finished developing.
00:22:19.013 --> 00:22:22.213
Vanessa Woods: It's kind of like their last period of rapid brain development.
00:22:22.213 --> 00:22:35.853
Michelle Fern: So, and you probably been asked this question so many times, but you know how people say it's not the breed, it's I don't like the word, but the master or the owner or something that seems to be pretty true.
00:22:35.973 --> 00:22:36.673
Vanessa Woods: What do you mean?
00:22:36.673 --> 00:22:37.333
Vanessa Woods: What do you mean by that?
00:22:37.773 --> 00:22:39.493
Michelle Fern: Stereotypes on breeds.
00:22:39.493 --> 00:22:43.073
Michelle Fern: We're stepping away from talking about the cognition.
00:22:43.073 --> 00:22:47.573
Michelle Fern: It seems to be more so you can't stereotype a breed.
00:22:47.573 --> 00:22:50.733
Michelle Fern: It's more how the puppy than the dog is raised.
00:22:50.733 --> 00:22:51.593
Vanessa Woods: Absolutely.
00:22:51.593 --> 00:22:52.493
Michelle Fern: An extent.
00:22:52.493 --> 00:22:55.733
Michelle Fern: I mean, there's extremes, of course, but to an extent.
00:22:55.733 --> 00:22:55.993
Vanessa Woods: Yes.
00:22:55.993 --> 00:23:08.993
Vanessa Woods: So we have actually, and so using the dog mission data, the citizen science data, we did not find any evidence that the breeds that are famous for breeding smart are cognitively different from other dog breeds.
00:23:08.993 --> 00:23:16.973
Vanessa Woods: In fact, when we ranked the dog breeds on the different cognitive tests, we had different breeds that came out on top depending on the test.
00:23:16.973 --> 00:23:23.313
Vanessa Woods: So it's like people have different intelligences, like some people are really good at reading, some people are really good at math.
00:23:23.313 --> 00:23:33.213
Vanessa Woods: Well, there are different breeds that perform better on these cognitive tests, and they're not the breeds that everybody thinks of as being the smart breed.
00:23:33.373 --> 00:23:39.453
Vanessa Woods: So for example, Spaniels in general tend to make the most eye contact.
00:23:39.453 --> 00:23:46.733
Vanessa Woods: Then Burmese Mountain Dogs we found are the best at using gestures, Pitbull Terriers actually are the best at using working memory.
00:23:46.733 --> 00:23:56.353
Vanessa Woods: So it's like different breeds have different strengths and it's difficult to make generalizations about those breeds.
00:23:56.353 --> 00:24:25.773
Vanessa Woods: What we found really by the canine companion dogs is that if we could wave a magic wand and do anything, it would be that breeders would focus more on temperament, specifically this stranger danger in a racing stranger danger in puppies because the canine companion dogs just over generations, it's been extensively selected on that these dogs are friendly towards strangers.
00:24:26.313 --> 00:24:42.613
Vanessa Woods: And that sort of small step has made this knock on difference as possible for other realms because a dog who is attracted to strangers can sit quietly in a cafe, they can go and visit hospitals, they can sit quietly in dentist office.
00:24:42.613 --> 00:24:50.613
Vanessa Woods: You know, dogs who are attracted to strangers, you know, you're never worried about children coming into your home or, you know, the friends of your children.
00:24:50.813 --> 00:25:01.133
Vanessa Woods: So, you know, I think anyone who's had challenges with their dog, like a lot of it comes down to, you know, stranger danger and anxiety.
00:25:01.133 --> 00:25:07.973
Vanessa Woods: And we've really seen with service dogs that you can breed that out of dogs.
00:25:07.973 --> 00:25:22.973
Vanessa Woods: So, you know, I would say that that would be the number one thing we could recommend, is that kind of like to shift the focus on dog breeds from what they look like to their temperament and behavior.
00:25:22.973 --> 00:25:26.693
Michelle Fern: And interestingly, this is when stranger danger is a good thing.
00:25:26.693 --> 00:25:29.573
Michelle Fern: It's more about socializing your dog.
00:25:29.613 --> 00:25:30.073
Michelle Fern: Yes.
00:25:30.073 --> 00:25:32.153
Michelle Fern: So for Canyon dog.
00:25:32.153 --> 00:25:40.113
Michelle Fern: So you have puppies that you're working with and then they graduate and you have new puppies the next semester.
00:25:40.113 --> 00:25:41.453
Michelle Fern: What is that like?
00:25:41.453 --> 00:25:43.073
Michelle Fern: I would find it traumatic.
00:25:43.073 --> 00:25:46.233
Vanessa Woods: Oh, for them to graduate is wonderful and crazy all the same time.
00:25:46.333 --> 00:25:55.313
Vanessa Woods: No, the Duke Puppy Kindergarten has what, so we started the Duke Puppy Kindergarten because we wanted to the impacts that we would have on the puppies.
00:25:55.313 --> 00:26:00.073
Vanessa Woods: So we had these two separate groups that we raised completely different ways.
00:26:00.073 --> 00:26:07.073
Vanessa Woods: So we enrolled 101 puppies and half of them we raised on Duke's campus with this flooding of socialization.
00:26:07.073 --> 00:26:09.153
Vanessa Woods: Like we call it like the love flooding condition.
00:26:09.153 --> 00:26:26.193
Vanessa Woods: Like, you know, they saw, you know, hundreds of people, they were raised by different people and they were just, we sort of like created this kind of like puppy Disney world, where they would just receive so much love and affection and socialization in this really critical development window.
00:26:26.193 --> 00:26:36.573
Vanessa Woods: And then we compared them with, you know, other puppies who were the control population that were raised, you know, similar to the way that you would raise them in the family home.
00:26:36.573 --> 00:26:40.733
Vanessa Woods: And, you know, that was the kind of like the idea of the experiment that we started.
00:26:40.733 --> 00:26:45.733
Vanessa Woods: But what we found was the impact of these puppies on the community has just been amazing.
00:26:45.733 --> 00:26:55.853
Vanessa Woods: Like, you know, we have 100 undergraduates every semester, and the, you know, I'm not sure if you know, but there's this kind of like this mental health crisis on college campuses right now.
00:26:55.853 --> 00:27:00.933
Vanessa Woods: The puppies have been so, like, it was just mind-blowing what a difference they made.
00:27:00.933 --> 00:27:19.173
Vanessa Woods: And you know, we didn't expect it, and we didn't, you know, we don't really understand it on some level, but it's every semester of puppies that comes in, the students are, find it so rewarding when they graduate because they go, they know they're going on to help other people, you know, and continue on their journey.
00:27:19.173 --> 00:27:30.653
Vanessa Woods: And then it's super wonderful because then it's next semester, there's like, you know, a whole new bunch of puppies and a new group during a new class that they have to raise and, you know, and love and train and test the same way.
00:27:30.653 --> 00:27:39.213
Vanessa Woods: So yes, no, graduation is always bittersweet, but you know, you know, in just like a month or two, there'll be a whole new class you have to take care of.
00:27:39.313 --> 00:27:41.573
Vanessa Woods: So you're too busy to be sad.
00:27:41.573 --> 00:27:42.673
Michelle Fern: Ah, so that's it.
00:27:42.673 --> 00:27:43.373
Michelle Fern: Okay.
00:27:43.373 --> 00:27:47.333
Michelle Fern: Because I would think I've never fostered, I've always adopted.
00:27:47.333 --> 00:27:51.913
Michelle Fern: And right now I have three cats that would not be very kind fostering a dog.
00:27:51.913 --> 00:27:54.653
Michelle Fern: So I can't, but although I wish I could.
00:27:54.653 --> 00:27:59.833
Michelle Fern: But I would think being around all these puppies and then they're going on to do great things.
00:27:59.833 --> 00:28:02.953
Michelle Fern: I guess you don't have time to miss them because then there comes new puppies.
00:28:02.953 --> 00:28:12.933
Michelle Fern: I love how you code them and give them names and they all look the same in some classes because they're either blonde, like chocolate, black or blonde, right?
00:28:12.933 --> 00:28:16.813
Vanessa Woods: Yeah, just black or, you just have the black and yellow, black and yellow one.
00:28:16.853 --> 00:28:19.173
Vanessa Woods: And you know, it's Michelle, it's just like kindergarten.
00:28:19.173 --> 00:28:22.473
Vanessa Woods: It's just like, you know, they graduate, you wish them the best.
00:28:22.473 --> 00:28:24.253
Vanessa Woods: And then, you know, you don't even have time to think.
00:28:24.253 --> 00:28:26.253
Vanessa Woods: And the new, the new puppies are here.
00:28:26.253 --> 00:28:29.293
Vanessa Woods: And so, you know, you have to just just start it all over again.
00:28:29.293 --> 00:28:30.833
Vanessa Woods: But it is a joy.
00:28:30.833 --> 00:28:32.513
Vanessa Woods: It is an absolute joy.
00:28:32.513 --> 00:28:45.873
Vanessa Woods: And, you know, when one of the matches and they are successful in their training, like even though it's like 18 months, two years down the line, like everybody is so happy and we all watch their graduation and we all cry.
00:28:45.873 --> 00:28:52.273
Vanessa Woods: And, you know, we're part of their lives for such a short time, you know, really that 8 to 20 week old.
00:28:52.273 --> 00:28:55.413
Vanessa Woods: But, you know, they're just kind of with us forever.
00:28:55.413 --> 00:28:58.533
Vanessa Woods: I remember every single puppy that's been through the kindergarten.
00:28:58.533 --> 00:29:00.473
Vanessa Woods: So, yeah, I guess it is.
00:29:00.473 --> 00:29:03.473
Vanessa Woods: Yeah, it's just, you know, like a kindergarten teacher.
00:29:03.473 --> 00:29:04.113
Michelle Fern: Yeah.
00:29:04.113 --> 00:29:12.553
Michelle Fern: And since this has had such an impact and, you know, it's Duke University, do you see this going on to any other universities?
00:29:12.553 --> 00:29:24.493
Vanessa Woods: Like, you know, Canine Companions does have other campuses that raise puppies and it's really student-led and we work with another organization, Ears, Eyes, Nose and Paws, and they're looking at starting the same thing.
00:29:24.493 --> 00:29:34.873
Vanessa Woods: College students are actually a perfect population for raising puppies because they, you know, they can take these service dogs to class.
00:29:35.333 --> 00:29:43.073
Vanessa Woods: If they're in training, they can take them into all these public spaces and they really have the time to dedicate to these guys.
00:29:43.073 --> 00:29:52.113
Vanessa Woods: And then also the relationship, like the kind of like the interchange of support and love that these students really have with their puppies.
00:29:52.113 --> 00:29:57.233
Vanessa Woods: I mean, you just hear them talk about it and it's just a wonderful thing for them to do.
00:29:57.233 --> 00:30:10.613
Vanessa Woods: So I'm not sure that anyone kind of like has a puppy kindergarten in the way that we do, but definitely college kids are becoming an important part of this kind of like early puppy training and puppy raising.
00:30:10.613 --> 00:30:15.233
Michelle Fern: Well, I don't know if you're familiar with HABRI.
00:30:15.233 --> 00:30:16.313
Vanessa Woods: Oh, yeah, sure.
00:30:16.313 --> 00:30:32.733
Michelle Fern: So I've seen them at shows to where they're, I can't recall what the acronym is, but they're basically, they have the idea that, you know, a doctor should be able to write a prescription, go get a puppy, or go get a kitten, because they do so much for you, you know?
00:30:32.733 --> 00:30:34.473
Michelle Fern: I think it's wonderful what you do.
00:30:34.473 --> 00:30:37.973
Michelle Fern: Let's talk quickly before we're out of time about the appendix.
00:30:37.973 --> 00:30:41.973
Michelle Fern: You go over supplies, home schedule, and poop.
00:30:41.973 --> 00:30:47.693
Michelle Fern: Why don't you use, poop is important, these three topics for the appendix.
00:30:47.693 --> 00:30:51.153
Vanessa Woods: So we have dealt a lot with, with poop.
00:30:51.153 --> 00:30:53.413
Vanessa Woods: It's been a big part of our lives.
00:30:53.413 --> 00:30:59.053
Vanessa Woods: We are fascinated to the point of obsession with what comes out of a puppy.
00:31:00.153 --> 00:31:05.753
Vanessa Woods: Because that is a puppy who has regular and solid bowel movements.
00:31:05.753 --> 00:31:07.593
Vanessa Woods: It's a puppy who can sleep through the night.
00:31:07.593 --> 00:31:09.873
Vanessa Woods: It's a puppy who is healthy.
00:31:09.873 --> 00:31:19.853
Vanessa Woods: Because these little creatures, just like children, you can see the changes in their health so quickly and so fast.
00:31:20.573 --> 00:31:24.513
Vanessa Woods: Poop is the number one indicator and a lot of puppy parents deal with diarrhea.
00:31:24.913 --> 00:31:38.233
Vanessa Woods: I didn't realize what a big part that would be of the Puppy Kindergarten, but yes, the appendix basically has everything in it that we wish we had known when we first started having puppies.
00:31:38.233 --> 00:31:44.793
Vanessa Woods: So it is everything that you need, a complete list of everything you need that we've developed over the years.
00:31:44.793 --> 00:31:57.173
Vanessa Woods: And it's also the protocol because there's no moment you'll ever forget, like going to get Wake Puppy and finding just an absolute poop explosion.
00:31:57.173 --> 00:31:59.113
Vanessa Woods: And it's so easy to panic.
00:31:59.113 --> 00:32:07.033
Vanessa Woods: And it's been something that we've had to tell the dorm razors, our students who take the puppies into the dorm every night.
00:32:07.033 --> 00:32:12.813
Vanessa Woods: And yes, so we just thought that it would be useful for puppy parents at home too.
00:32:12.813 --> 00:32:13.573
Michelle Fern: Oh, I agree.
00:32:13.573 --> 00:32:21.773
Michelle Fern: And I like the schedule too because a lot of people think, I want a dog, I can't wait to get a dog and they don't realize that there's a lot of time involved.
00:32:21.913 --> 00:32:31.613
Michelle Fern: And if you don't have the time, you have to have caretakers come in and take care of your dog because when they're that little, they can't be left alone, you know, 8, 9, 10 hours.
00:32:31.613 --> 00:32:32.193
Vanessa Woods: Yeah, that's right.
00:32:32.393 --> 00:32:36.633
Vanessa Woods: You know, we just had a lot of people asking us like, well, what schedule are the puppies on?
00:32:36.633 --> 00:32:40.973
Vanessa Woods: And I think this really comes into, you know, how puppies are so much like children now.
00:32:40.973 --> 00:32:48.693
Vanessa Woods: I mean, when I was raised as a baby, I think I was literally just throwing in a playpen like hours at a time and watching like the Wheel of Fortune.
00:32:48.813 --> 00:32:58.533
Vanessa Woods: But now it's like, it's really like, it's kind of like babies, they have a very strict schedule, they have several naptimes a day.
00:32:58.533 --> 00:33:05.833
Vanessa Woods: You have to make sure that they have times when they're together, but then also times where they're alone.
00:33:05.833 --> 00:33:09.353
Vanessa Woods: And yeah, I mean, the schedule is really just like a kindergarten.
00:33:09.353 --> 00:33:23.553
Vanessa Woods: It's like this is when they eat, and I have to go have a walk, and then they have recess where they play, but then they have to be when they learn their lessons, like all their manners, and then they get lunch, but then you need to take them for another walk.
00:33:23.553 --> 00:33:35.253
Vanessa Woods: And so, you know, we were just giving out this schedule so often, you know, everyone asking us what to do with their puppies, that we just kind of like decided that that was important to include.
00:33:35.253 --> 00:33:37.333
Michelle Fern: I think it's great to include that.
00:33:37.333 --> 00:33:44.313
Michelle Fern: So what would you tell everybody listening if they're thinking, oh, another puppy book, OK, why should people buy your book?
00:33:44.313 --> 00:33:46.413
Michelle Fern: What is different about Puppy Kindergarten?
00:33:46.873 --> 00:34:06.533
Vanessa Woods: So this book has like all the science, like this is the first large scale study about raising puppies, I think since, you know, the 1950s, 1960s, just to have, and it's definitely the first study of its kind to have, you know, over 100 puppies tested longitudinally from this period of eight weeks to 20 weeks.
00:34:06.533 --> 00:34:09.613
Vanessa Woods: You know, it is an NIH funded study.
00:34:09.613 --> 00:34:12.513
Vanessa Woods: So, you know, it's the National Institute of Health.
00:34:12.513 --> 00:34:14.193
Vanessa Woods: You know, we will publish our research.
00:34:14.533 --> 00:34:17.473
Vanessa Woods: So, it's really rigorous science.
00:34:17.473 --> 00:34:20.433
Vanessa Woods: It's a really, we tried to make it a really fun book.
00:34:20.433 --> 00:34:25.433
Vanessa Woods: We have a lot of puppy pictures in there, but it is serious science.
00:34:25.453 --> 00:34:37.713
Vanessa Woods: And, you know, the goal of our whole project is to solve this really, you know, critical problem that a lot of service working dog organizers just have is that they just don't have enough dogs.
00:34:37.713 --> 00:34:45.093
Vanessa Woods: And so we really had to, you know, scientifically quantify, well, what is it that makes a great dog?
00:34:45.093 --> 00:34:51.473
Vanessa Woods: And, you know, what are the cognitive abilities that allow dogs to become great dogs?
00:34:51.473 --> 00:34:55.633
Vanessa Woods: Because, you know, a lot of the time, like, the focus is on training.
00:34:55.633 --> 00:34:58.793
Vanessa Woods: Like a lot of puppy books is like, oh, well, this is how you train them, and this is what you do.
00:34:58.793 --> 00:35:00.133
Vanessa Woods: And then training is really important.
00:35:00.133 --> 00:35:02.433
Vanessa Woods: Don't get me wrong, but it is not enough.
00:35:02.433 --> 00:35:09.613
Vanessa Woods: So, you know, we're in an evolutionary anthropology department, and we understand the evolutionary history of dogs.
00:35:09.613 --> 00:35:19.573
Vanessa Woods: And the fact is that dogs have not been bred for what we are requiring them to do today, and that's to live as family members and to live as part of our families.
00:35:19.573 --> 00:35:23.773
Vanessa Woods: And service dogs are a century ahead of the curve.
00:35:23.773 --> 00:35:29.093
Vanessa Woods: I mean, service dogs have always had to behave like family members.
00:35:29.093 --> 00:35:37.773
Vanessa Woods: They've always had to be able to go calmly and, you know, calmly without anxiety or nervousness in public spaces.
00:35:37.773 --> 00:35:42.473
Vanessa Woods: They've always had to be able to be left alone without separation anxiety.
00:35:42.473 --> 00:35:53.413
Vanessa Woods: You know, they've always had to be friendly towards children, kind to the elderly, to be, you know, not just well-trained, but well-behaved.
00:35:53.413 --> 00:35:57.293
Vanessa Woods: And those are, you know, they overlap, but they're two different things.
00:35:57.293 --> 00:36:09.693
Vanessa Woods: So this book is about, you know, acknowledging this cultural shift that's happened in what we expect of our dogs and really trying to give puppies a head start to be these great dogs.
00:36:09.833 --> 00:36:14.253
Vanessa Woods: And, you know, everyone who's had a great dog knows, you know, what a great dog is.
00:36:14.253 --> 00:36:19.833
Vanessa Woods: And this is kind of like this book is trying to quantify it in a scientific way.
00:36:19.833 --> 00:36:23.453
Michelle Fern: I think you did an excellent job of reaching your goal.
00:36:23.453 --> 00:36:29.293
Michelle Fern: It is very scientific, but it's not a dry science book, which I've read some of those.
00:36:29.293 --> 00:36:30.473
Michelle Fern: It's interesting.
00:36:30.473 --> 00:36:31.593
Michelle Fern: It's really good.
00:36:31.593 --> 00:36:34.593
Michelle Fern: And it's engaging, which is important.
00:36:34.593 --> 00:36:36.453
Vanessa Woods: Well, that's thanks to the puppies.
00:36:36.453 --> 00:36:37.893
Vanessa Woods: They were engaging material.
00:36:38.173 --> 00:36:40.093
Michelle Fern: Yeah, but you wrote it, so.
00:36:41.153 --> 00:36:46.753
Michelle Fern: Yeah, some books that are out there are so what I call, it's not even a right word, but sciencey.
00:36:46.753 --> 00:36:47.653
Michelle Fern: They're very dry.
00:36:47.653 --> 00:36:50.133
Michelle Fern: There's a lot of formulations and things like that.
00:36:50.133 --> 00:36:57.353
Michelle Fern: And yes, for those that have the science mind and have done many experiments and all of that, that's of interest to them.
00:36:57.353 --> 00:37:00.193
Michelle Fern: But that's a small population of pet parents.
00:37:00.193 --> 00:37:02.113
Michelle Fern: So you did a great job.
00:37:02.113 --> 00:37:04.113
Michelle Fern: Vanessa, where can people buy your book?
00:37:04.113 --> 00:37:06.333
Vanessa Woods: It is at all independent bookstores.
00:37:06.453 --> 00:37:08.693
Vanessa Woods: I love supporting independent bookstores.
00:37:08.693 --> 00:37:12.893
Vanessa Woods: It is also at Barnes and Nobles and on Amazon.
00:37:12.893 --> 00:37:16.773
Vanessa Woods: So yes, people should be able to find it very easily.
00:37:16.773 --> 00:37:17.813
Michelle Fern: Wonderful job.
00:37:17.813 --> 00:37:19.573
Vanessa Woods: Thank you so much, Michelle.
00:37:19.573 --> 00:37:21.793
Michelle Fern: I hope all of you enjoyed this show.
00:37:21.793 --> 00:37:24.233
Michelle Fern: This is a phenomenal book.
00:37:24.233 --> 00:37:28.593
Michelle Fern: It's called Puppy Kindergarten, The New Science of Raising a Great Dog.
00:37:28.593 --> 00:37:37.453
Michelle Fern: I encourage you to get it if you're thinking about getting a puppy, you have a puppy, want to understand more about puppies, or your dog.
00:37:37.453 --> 00:37:49.013
Michelle Fern: It's a wonderful book and you can go to the episode page for this show and there'll be more information and a link to where you can find out more about Puppy Kindergarten.
00:37:49.013 --> 00:37:52.293
Michelle Fern: I want to thank, I guess, my previous puppies because Mr.
00:37:52.293 --> 00:37:57.353
Michelle Fern: Z is in Puppy Heaven, but my cats taught me a lot even though they're not puppies.
00:37:57.353 --> 00:38:00.033
Michelle Fern: So thank you, Charlotte, Dennis and Molly.
00:38:00.033 --> 00:38:04.473
Michelle Fern: And of course, thanks to my guest, Vanessa Woods for coming on the show.
00:38:04.473 --> 00:38:05.933
Michelle Fern: Thanks to everybody listening.
00:38:06.073 --> 00:38:07.973
Michelle Fern: I appreciate you so much.
00:38:07.973 --> 00:38:11.533
Michelle Fern: And of course, a huge thank you to my producer, Mark Winter.
00:38:11.533 --> 00:38:12.973
Michelle Fern: But that is magic.
00:38:12.973 --> 00:38:15.513
Michelle Fern: This show would not be as good as it is.
00:38:15.513 --> 00:38:17.093
Michelle Fern: He does wonders.
00:38:17.093 --> 00:38:21.093
Michelle Fern: And remember, you never know what we're going to have next on Best Bets for Pets.
00:38:22.033 --> 00:38:27.933
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