Dr. Ian Dunbar - Barking Up the Right Tree
Joining me for this episode is legendary veterinarian, animal behaviorist and author, Dr. Ian Dunbar. We have a chat about his latest book, Barking Up the Right Tree. The book focuses on positive training with “Life Rewards” – time for dogs to sniff, walk, play games and interact with other dogs. We discuss what has changed, improved or been a setback in animal behavior training since he started more than five decades ago. Also, learn what it takes to take a lifetime of work, choose the important bits and edit into one single book. Have a listen to this fun and educational chat and learn from one of the best. Enjoy!
Listen to Episode #210 Now:
BIO:
Dr. Ian Dunbar is one of the world's most respected experts on dog training and behavior.
He grew up on a farm in the English countryside training cows, chickens and yes, dogs using time-honored lure reward training techniques learned from his family.
He went on to receive his veterinary degree from the Royal Veterinary College at London University and his doctorate from the University of California, Berkeley.
In 1982, he designed and taught the world's very first off-leash puppy socialization and training classes – SIRIUS® Puppy Training. These puppy classes would go on to become immensely popular and imitated all around the world.
The success and popularity of these classes ultimately revolutionized the world of dog training by putting a much needed focus on puppyhood and easy, enjoyable, and effective methods, at a time when most training was boring and unpleasant.
Subsequently, Ian went on to create and develop the San Francisco SPCA's Animal Behavior Department, he started the American Kennel Club's Gazette "Behavior" column, which he wrote for seven years, and he designed and organized the K9 GAMES®.
In 1993, he founded the Association of Professional Dog Trainers. With over 5000 members in 48 countries, the APDT has grown to be the world's largest association of dog trainers.
He has authored numerous books and videos, including five seasons of Dogs with Dunbar, a popular television program in the UK. He has given over one thousand seminars and workshops around the world and has been instrumental in the rise of reward-based, fun and games, scientifically sound dog training methods.
Currently, his online courses, seminars, and workshops are available from DunbarAcademy.com
Transcript:
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Announcer: This is Pet Life Radio.
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Announcer: Let's talk pets.
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Tim Link: Welcome to Animal Writes on Pet Life Radio.
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Tim Link: Joining me now for this show, we're super excited about it.
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Tim Link: It's Dr.
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Tim Link: Ian Dunbar.
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Tim Link: And Dr.
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Tim Link: Dunbar is going to be talking to us a little bit about his latest book about Barking Up the Right Tree, The Science and Practice of Positive Dog Training.
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Tim Link: So we'll pick his brain a little bit about the book, a little bit about how dog training and behavior has changed over the years, or how maybe in a positive manner, maybe not so positive manner.
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Tim Link: And then we'll talk to him a little bit about just writing of books and getting information out there, or how the process works.
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Tim Link: We'll pick his brain up from the author side as well.
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Tim Link: So everybody hang tight.
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Tim Link: You're listening to Animal Writes on Pet Life Radio.
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<v SPEAKER_4>Let's Talk Pets on petliferadio.com Welcome back to Animal Writes on PetLifeRadio.
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Tim Link: This is your host Tim Link, and I'm super excited to have on the show tonight.
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Tim Link: He's a veterinarian, animal behaviorist, knows everything there is to know about animals in general and how to raise them from puppies, in particular puppies into dogs, and the nuances behind it.
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Tim Link: Of course, we're talking about Dr.
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Tim Link: Ian Dunbar.
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Tim Link: Dr.
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Tim Link: Dunbar, welcome to the show.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: Hi there, Tim.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: Thank you for having me.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: Very excited.
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Tim Link: Yeah, we're excited.
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Tim Link: We're excited, too, and I was excited to see the latest book, Barking Up the Right Tree, The Science and Practice of Positive Dog Training.
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Tim Link: And obviously, we know your long-term commitment to canines and animals in general, and how you developed the cutting-edge technique of positive dog training.
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Tim Link: So tell us a little bit about this particular book and how it's different from some of the other books you published over the years.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: Well, most of the books I've written are like How to Raise Your Puppy, How to Train Your Puppy, How to Train Your Adult.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: This one is more about concepts in training, which I lectured about from 2008 to 2015.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: And then I suddenly realized two years ago, none of this is written down.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: So I wrote it down.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: And it's more sort of, how should I put it, creative state-of-the-art stuff, like better rewards in training, better reinforcement schedules.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: And most importantly, I mean, the jewel of the crown of the book is, when your dogs misbehave or they're non-compliant, they don't do what you ask, how you resolve that using just your voice and without even having to raise it.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: So you don't have to raise a voice and you certainly don't have to raise your hand.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: You just, if the dog's barking, you say, shush, if he's jumping up and down like an idiot, you say, sit.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: And so we calmly instruct dogs what to do.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: And so a single word actually communicates three pieces of information.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: One, stop what you're doing.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: Two, specifically do this instead.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: And three, the degree of urgency or potential danger if the dog doesn't comply.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: But our voice has just disappeared from training over the past two decades.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: So not only am I now, you know, writing this book, but now I'm blogging like a fiend at dunbaracademy.com.
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Tim Link: I love that.
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Tim Link: I love that.
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Tim Link: And getting the messages out, you know, and the good thing about blogging, obviously you're getting them out on a regular schedule, a daily basis, or however often you blog, it gets quick little messages out to everybody so they can learn right away.
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Tim Link: Now I love the comment that you made there because obviously, you know, the way I sort of view dog training in particular, you know, we've got sort of the dominant dog training, the pack leader, the forcefulness, which I'm definitely not in favor of it.
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Tim Link: And then the positive side.
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Tim Link: And as I was reading through the book, I found it fascinating because it seems to me that positive dog training is obviously the way to go and how more and more people are learning about what it is and how to implement it.
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Tim Link: But it has gone to more of a reward-based system.
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Tim Link: Like every time you do something, they get a treat.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: No, you would never do that.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: If you gave the dog a treat every time, you would quickly devalue food rewards and that lose the reinforcing value.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: And because you have the risk that they would become bribes.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: And now the dog's behavior is contingent on you having food in your hand or on your body.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: So the important thing about the difference between punishment and reward, with punishment, you must be consistent.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: If you miss just once, the dog will learn when he can misbehave without being punished.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: But with rewards, not only, you know, you needn't be consistent, you shouldn't be consistent.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: You want rewards to be like unexpected.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: You want to raise the anticipation and that increases their reinforcing power.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: So you can actually be totally inconsistent when using rewards.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: And probably the biggest problem in dog training today that allowed, you know, aversive punishments to come back in again, is that so-called positive trainers, using reinforcement, are giving far too many rewards.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: And so, you know, their behaviors aren't as reliable.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: And so, you know, that enabled only stuff to make another charge at it.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: But when, so really it's the fact now that positive dog training is not working the way it should.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: People have strayed from, you know, the original way and have made it overly complicated, impersonal and theoretical, rather than highly practical, effective, and just having a jolly good time.
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Tim Link: Yeah, and I think that's a brilliant point to make, because you're right, because those that are training their dogs and they're using a positive approach, I get called upon this quite often.
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Tim Link: As I mentioned before, you know, oftentimes they view it as a treat system.
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Tim Link: You know, every time you do something positive, I give you a treat and then I get asked questions about, okay, well, how big is the treat and what is the treat and won't they get too fat from the treat?
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Tim Link: It's like, well, yes.
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Tim Link: And as you stated throughout the book and state just now, the fact that there are all kinds of rewards.
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Tim Link: You know, there's all kinds of ways that your dog will see the benefit of, you know, acting in a manner that you prefer them to act.
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Tim Link: And some of that is just sort of verbal, but it can also be, you know, walks and play and pets and just a lot of a positive energy and emotion going their way.
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Tim Link: And it doesn't always have to be some sort of a treat or reward, as you said.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: No, and you'll never get there just using, you know, clicks and treats and what you have to use in training are the things the dog really wants that we normally call distractions or annoying behaviors like playing with other dogs, sniffing, you know, interactive games with the person.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: Though my two most commonly used rewards are, Rover, sit, go sniff, and of course I'll let the dog sniff when I say so.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: And then let's go and then sit again, go sniff.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: And when they're playing with other dogs, I just say, sit, there's a good dog or who's a good boy.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: Lie down, go play.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: And the neat thing is when you interrupt these two of the dogs, the most powerful reinforcing activities in like universal dogdom, playing with other dogs and sniffing, the more times you interrupt them, just for a very short training interlude, the more times you can let the dog resume them using now what was a distraction that worked against training as a reward that works for training.
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Tim Link: And that's it.
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Tim Link: That's the amazing part about the whole thing.
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Tim Link: And I love what you covered in the book is the fact that, you know, it's sort of, you'll really get back to the basics, but more importantly, understanding what the basics are, which are simple things that dogs like to do and allow them to do that.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: Absolutely.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: And, you know, positive reinforcement training has just got stuck in food treats.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: And it's true, they are bribing now, they don't phase out, you know, food rewards.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: And so we use a technique, I call it lure reward training, you know, four steps, request, lure, response, reward.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: So I say sit, then I move the food lure in a way so the dog sits.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: So basically the food lure is just to teach the dog the meaning of the hand signal, and then the verbal request.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: But I phase it out in the first session.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: So now I'm only using food rewards, but already, you know, within the first minute, I ask the dog come, sit, down, sit, stand, down, stand, and maybe reward it.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: So I'm getting seven behaviors for one reward.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: Or I'll take a little golden puppy, they're incredible, and I'll have them do puppy pushups, you know, which are down sits.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: And the average golden first week in puppy class will do 20 just for the prospect of a reward.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: You haven't even given it.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: Well, that's 40 behaviors for once.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: So I'm already phasing it out before I start training.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: And I phase it out because I don't want to always have food with me.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: And really, there are so many other rewards which are far more reinforcing, like playing fetch, tug, hide and seek with your dog.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: You know, this is what dogs really thrive on.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: And then all you do is have rules to the game, kind of like if we're playing soccer and the ref blew their whistle, you know, everyone stands still.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: Well, I say sit instead of a whistle, and the dog sits.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: And because he does that, usually I say go play immediately, because I've just demonstrated I'm in control with my dog 40 yards away, playing with a bunch of dogs in the dog park.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: And so it becomes much easier now to administer rewards.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: We don't like toss the treat on the ground or get the dog all come all the way back for it.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: You know, it's this, there's too many rewards in reinforcement training.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: And we don't really look into what does the dog really want to do.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: He wants to hang out and do things with you, his person.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: And then he'll gladly usually do what you ask.
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Tim Link: I love it.
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Tim Link: It sort of translates into humans, you know, and the way I look at it, it's the fact that if we're getting a treat, say a piece of cake as a reward, well, that's fantastic at the time, but that wears off rather quickly.
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Tim Link: What we really want to is to be, you know, have relationships and do things and travel and, you know, be part of everything.
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Tim Link: And it's just same thing with our dogs.
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Tim Link: You know, the treat may be a temporary reward, but as you said, it gets old and commonplace and expected.
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Tim Link: And so doing the things that they really want to do and rewarding them in that fashion is a much better way for a mental and physical stimulation for them.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: Yeah.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: And I think, you know, a lot of trainers go down a slippery slope of looking for a better treat.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: And they use all these commercial treats, which, you know, have far too much, you know, salt and sugar and carbohydrate and preservatives in.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: And then they find the dog's blowing it off.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: So they go to something that's greasy, like hot dog or chicken and eventually dried fish.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: I only use kibble, basic dry kibble.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: You know, what the dog eats usually, I mean, a dry food, you know, very high quality food, but it's dry and it is part of their normal diet that I measure out in the morning and use say 20 pieces for teaching basic manners, or occasionally 50 pieces to teach the dog to love the presence of children or other dogs.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: But it's just kibble, but we don't use them over and over when teaching manners because as you said, it's the quickest way to do value, the reinforcing power.
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Tim Link: And I think it's also from a human standpoint, you know, they're human companions us.
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Tim Link: We want what's best for them.
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Tim Link: We want to train them.
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Tim Link: We want them to behave in a fashion we want them to behave in, but putting forth the time and commitment is something we're not prepared to do.
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Tim Link: So it's so much easier to toss a treat on the ground, like you said, or hand them a piece of jerky or whatever it may be, than to actually be present in their moment, to go out and take them to places so they can be with other dogs and, you know, be part of the moment.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: It's actually not.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: It's a lot of people these days do not test, did the training work and how quickly it worked.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: I do.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: I'm always testing how easy was it for people, how quick was it and how reliable, how effective.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: And the easiest, quickest, most effective way to teach queued responses, you know, come sit down, roll over, high five and stuff, is lure reward training.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: And then we phase out the food lure, phase out the food reward and use all these rewards the dog likes.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: And once we've taught, you know, a fairly large vocabulary, and they're big, say 20 words, we can now string together sentences.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: Like with my second Malamute, I used to say, Phoenix, come here, sit, take this and go to Jamie, please.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: And she would sit and take a bit of paper in my hand, go upstairs, out the yard, looking for Jamie, sit in front of him.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: And we called it Malamute Mail.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: He would take the note, come in, lunch is ready.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: I mean, you can have so much fun with it.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: Once you've taught the dog, essentially ESL, English as a Second Language, now we can at least communicate with them.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: And then what I like is when owners learn how to read their dog.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: So they know what their dog wants.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: They know how their dog feels.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: There are ways to ask questions.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: What would they like to do?
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: How are they feeling today?
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: And that to me is the fun of having a dog, that we open communication channels, they understand us, we understand them.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: We have a lot of fun together.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: And the training part is quick.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: The having fun part, no, it takes a lifetime.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: You know, I look on living with a dog, every interaction in the house is a training, teaching opportunity, but also a fun opportunity.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: You see, if the dog ever knows that this is fun, but that's training, they're gonna choose fun.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: That's why training is more fun than anything, because they're doing it with you.
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Tim Link: I love it.
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Tim Link: I love that.
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Tim Link: And every opportunity is a training opportunity.
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Tim Link: So it's just like us humans, every opportunity is a learning opportunity.
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Tim Link: So listen and learn on that behalf.
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Tim Link: So when putting together the book, I know you said you lectured on this obviously for years, and then you realized, oh, I didn't put this down in writing.
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Tim Link: Once you put it into the book, Barking Up the Right Tree, were there some surprises or things that you had forgot to mention in your lectures or some of these types of things, or was it pretty straightforward?
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: Well, the last 10 years' worth of innovations in dog training, not only were they not written down, they weren't in my lectures back then, but there was one lecture, science-based dog training with feeling, where I sort of analyzed the laboratory science that everyone follows and worships now, and explained how it was so lame and didn't work very well, because this was computers consistently and well-timed training captive rats.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: Well, the rat couldn't escape punishment, so punishment worked well in the lab, but it doesn't work well when humans try to administer it, because humans don't have good timing, and they're utterly inconsistent most of the time.
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Dr. Ian Dunbar: But even the, you know, doling out the rewards, the reinforcement schedules were just too silly for words.
00:16:13.040 --> 00:16:26.660
Dr. Ian Dunbar: So I have a lot written down, and one of the things I've done since I started my career, every workshop I've ever given, and I mean, I've given over 1,500 one-day workshops and seminars, they've all been filmed.
00:16:26.780 --> 00:16:31.420
Dr. Ian Dunbar: So I cataloged them from way back when, and every seminar I've given.
00:16:31.780 --> 00:16:35.320
Dr. Ian Dunbar: So we developed this website where we archived them all.
00:16:35.520 --> 00:16:41.300
Dr. Ian Dunbar: So it's probably now the largest sort of online resource for dog behavior and training.
00:16:41.680 --> 00:16:44.720
Dr. Ian Dunbar: And that's dunbaracademy.com.
00:16:45.200 --> 00:16:46.380
Dr. Ian Dunbar: I mean, it's just huge.
00:16:46.400 --> 00:16:52.120
Dr. Ian Dunbar: If you binge watched it, watch say 16 hours a day, it would take you four months to get through it.
00:16:52.220 --> 00:17:05.040
Dr. Ian Dunbar: And so there's a lot of really easy stuff because I don't teach people this to sort of impress them that I've got lots of doctorate degrees and I'm using long words and acronyms.
00:17:05.660 --> 00:17:10.440
Dr. Ian Dunbar: I imagine I have a five-year-old child in the audience and I'm talking to them.
00:17:10.940 --> 00:17:18.300
Dr. Ian Dunbar: This is how you train your dog simply, quickly and very effectively so you can now communicate with it.
00:17:18.500 --> 00:17:29.280
Dr. Ian Dunbar: But I must admit, I did, there were some things that were so old, I'd forgotten them that I, you know, and so I went back and I watched a couple of old videos myself and read some old lecture notes.
00:17:29.760 --> 00:17:33.340
Dr. Ian Dunbar: But I loved that writing the book was a joy in COVID.
00:17:34.120 --> 00:17:42.900
Dr. Ian Dunbar: I loved writing it, but I ended up with 500,000 words and editing it down to 120,000 was so painful.
00:17:43.240 --> 00:17:48.900
Dr. Ian Dunbar: It literally was, it hurt me, seeing my words be chopped out by the editor.
00:17:50.040 --> 00:17:51.420
Tim Link: Gosh, darn those editors.
00:17:51.880 --> 00:17:56.200
Dr. Ian Dunbar: The neat thing about the book is it sold out before it was released.
00:17:56.340 --> 00:17:57.420
Dr. Ian Dunbar: It was amazing.
00:17:57.500 --> 00:18:02.480
Dr. Ian Dunbar: So they had to do a second printing and the book hadn't even been released yet to the bookstores.
00:18:02.760 --> 00:18:03.220
Tim Link: That's mad.
00:18:03.600 --> 00:18:04.640
Dr. Ian Dunbar: Yeah, that made me happy.
00:18:04.780 --> 00:18:05.780
Tim Link: Yeah, absolutely.
00:18:05.800 --> 00:18:09.300
Tim Link: Well, it's just a testament to your skill and how long you've been doing this.
00:18:09.320 --> 00:18:11.140
Tim Link: Everybody knows you're an expert in the field.
00:18:11.520 --> 00:18:16.860
Tim Link: I applaud you for many things, but one of them was stating the fact that you videotaped everything.
00:18:16.880 --> 00:18:20.540
Tim Link: You know, nowadays, that seems to be the only route for people to learn.
00:18:20.560 --> 00:18:24.840
Tim Link: I hate to say that because we're promoting your book here, but video is the way to go.
00:18:24.860 --> 00:18:28.440
Tim Link: And you were cutting edge and knowing to do that very early on.
00:18:28.460 --> 00:18:29.860
Tim Link: So now you can attack this.
00:18:30.200 --> 00:18:43.600
Tim Link: I shouldn't say attack, but you can definitely take this training in two facets, those that can read from the book and learn and reference it in the ear market, those type of things, and those that want the videos to watch quickly and to learn from.
00:18:43.920 --> 00:18:45.320
Dr. Ian Dunbar: Well, you said it right there.
00:18:45.340 --> 00:18:46.220
Dr. Ian Dunbar: Watch quickly.
00:18:46.500 --> 00:18:51.940
Dr. Ian Dunbar: I now am a video editor, which I used to be years ago, about 20 years ago.
00:18:52.260 --> 00:19:00.920
Dr. Ian Dunbar: And now I'm taking these 30 minute, one hour, six hour long videos and break them up into 30 second and one minute clips.
00:19:00.940 --> 00:19:05.500
Dr. Ian Dunbar: So people will watch it, you know, and they're all exciting, of course.
00:19:05.520 --> 00:19:07.680
Dr. Ian Dunbar: They're really dynamic because they're clips.
00:19:07.760 --> 00:19:15.560
Dr. Ian Dunbar: But then what I like to do, if ever I put a clip anywhere, I say you can watch the whole session unedited at Dunbar Academy.
00:19:15.660 --> 00:19:19.940
Dr. Ian Dunbar: So you can see me training with all the glitches, you know, where everything goes wrong.
00:19:19.960 --> 00:19:24.700
Dr. Ian Dunbar: And I tell the dog shush and he goes, woof, woof, you know.
00:19:24.720 --> 00:19:26.340
Dr. Ian Dunbar: And then how I deal with it.
00:19:26.360 --> 00:19:30.900
Dr. Ian Dunbar: And I think that really is a good learning aid for people.
00:19:31.020 --> 00:19:34.000
Dr. Ian Dunbar: You know, it's no good then watching a dog trainer and the dog's perfect.
00:19:34.020 --> 00:19:37.880
Dr. Ian Dunbar: They don't learn anything apart from, oh, that's an incredible dog, an incredible trainer.
00:19:38.020 --> 00:19:41.180
Dr. Ian Dunbar: So I'm proud of all my mistakes on camera.
00:19:41.420 --> 00:19:43.860
Dr. Ian Dunbar: I even, I gave a lecture in Japan years ago.
00:19:43.880 --> 00:19:45.240
Dr. Ian Dunbar: It was three hours long.
00:19:45.260 --> 00:19:51.000
Dr. Ian Dunbar: I had a video of all the recorded mistakes I've made when training and they loved it.
00:19:51.180 --> 00:19:52.660
Dr. Ian Dunbar: I mean, it was hilarious.
00:19:53.680 --> 00:19:55.580
Tim Link: So you had your own personal blooper reel.
00:19:55.640 --> 00:19:56.580
Tim Link: That was the key.
00:19:56.720 --> 00:19:57.620
Dr. Ian Dunbar: Yeah.
00:19:57.800 --> 00:19:59.580
Tim Link: But I think that's a brilliant part of it.
00:19:59.640 --> 00:20:12.040
Tim Link: And for people to see that, because, you know, rarely I'll say, no matter how good you are, no matter how much I follow your plan, or read your books, or see your seminars, I don't think I ever could have a dog immediately respond.
00:20:12.340 --> 00:20:15.100
Tim Link: Or maybe they'll respond the way I want them to the first time.
00:20:15.360 --> 00:20:17.060
Tim Link: And then I go back the second time and try it.
00:20:17.080 --> 00:20:19.460
Tim Link: And they decide, I've already done that, I don't want to do that again.
00:20:19.740 --> 00:20:27.460
Tim Link: So seeing those little glitches and bloopers pop up, and then how to correct those without getting frustrated, or yelling, or screaming, or things like that is brilliant.
00:20:27.540 --> 00:20:30.120
Dr. Ian Dunbar: Well, it's, you know, I'm not a great dog trainer.
00:20:30.140 --> 00:20:34.760
Dr. Ian Dunbar: I mean, I know many dog trainers who are much better at me, at sticking with it and training the dog.
00:20:34.780 --> 00:20:36.720
Dr. Ian Dunbar: I just see it from the owner's viewpoint.
00:20:36.940 --> 00:20:38.420
Dr. Ian Dunbar: You want this quick and easy, right?
00:20:38.500 --> 00:20:39.900
Dr. Ian Dunbar: Okay, here it goes.
00:20:40.560 --> 00:20:46.760
Dr. Ian Dunbar: And, but I do have one training skill, which is amazing because I am not a patient person.
00:20:46.800 --> 00:20:48.060
Dr. Ian Dunbar: I'm so impatient.
00:20:48.520 --> 00:20:51.440
Dr. Ian Dunbar: But with dogs, I have so much patience.
00:20:51.520 --> 00:20:57.720
Dr. Ian Dunbar: If I tell them to sit, do you know the next thing they're gonna do before they go back playing again is they're gonna sit.
00:20:57.840 --> 00:20:59.560
Dr. Ian Dunbar: I don't care how long it takes.
00:20:59.980 --> 00:21:02.040
Dr. Ian Dunbar: I said, sit, so you have to sit.
00:21:02.480 --> 00:21:10.700
Dr. Ian Dunbar: And once they sit, if they, you know, fiddled around with me and wasted my time and I had to repeat the instruction, then they have to repeat the behavior.
00:21:10.940 --> 00:21:13.860
Dr. Ian Dunbar: So once they sat, I say, thank you, brilliant.
00:21:13.900 --> 00:21:18.760
Dr. Ian Dunbar: You know, sarcastically like Will Ferrell on his sarcasm training stuff.
00:21:19.140 --> 00:21:20.880
Dr. Ian Dunbar: And then I say, let's do it again, shall we?
00:21:21.000 --> 00:21:22.020
Dr. Ian Dunbar: Come here, sit.
00:21:22.260 --> 00:21:23.540
Dr. Ian Dunbar: Oh, good dog, go play.
00:21:23.740 --> 00:21:28.880
Dr. Ian Dunbar: And they learn quickly from that, that when I say, and I usually have a codeword, their name.
00:21:29.140 --> 00:21:35.320
Dr. Ian Dunbar: So you see, if I said, Hugo, sit, it's not a command, it's not even a request, it's a suggestion.
00:21:35.720 --> 00:21:38.080
Dr. Ian Dunbar: I'd like you to do this, but if you don't want to, don't.
00:21:38.100 --> 00:21:39.220
Dr. Ian Dunbar: I just thought it'd be nice.
00:21:39.220 --> 00:21:41.280
Dr. Ian Dunbar: I said, hey, come over here on the couch.
00:21:41.640 --> 00:21:43.780
Dr. Ian Dunbar: If you're happier on the floor, fine with me.
00:21:44.200 --> 00:21:52.520
Dr. Ian Dunbar: If I wanted them to do it, which I only do probably, what, three minutes in a day, I say, Hugo, Louis, sit.
00:21:52.720 --> 00:22:00.180
Dr. Ian Dunbar: And then I enforce it with patience by following up with, you know, and there's no raising my voice.
00:22:00.200 --> 00:22:01.420
Dr. Ian Dunbar: I don't get upset.
00:22:01.880 --> 00:22:03.380
Dr. Ian Dunbar: I just wait until they sit.
00:22:03.400 --> 00:22:05.720
Dr. Ian Dunbar: And when they sit, they have to repeat it.
00:22:06.200 --> 00:22:15.560
Dr. Ian Dunbar: And so the dog learns, you know, if you're playing and Ian says, Hugo, Louis, sit, the quickest way to get back to playing again is to sit the first time he says it.
00:22:15.860 --> 00:22:30.340
Dr. Ian Dunbar: And that's how you get levels of ultra reliability on demand, because now for the other, you know, 23 hours and 57 minutes in the day, you and your dog can chill and relax, you're off duty.
00:22:30.580 --> 00:22:35.080
Dr. Ian Dunbar: And I love it when I give the dog a suggestion and he says, no, I'm asleep.
00:22:35.300 --> 00:22:36.600
Dr. Ian Dunbar: It was just a suggestion.
00:22:36.620 --> 00:22:38.460
Dr. Ian Dunbar: I don't say, oh, you're dissing me.
00:22:38.560 --> 00:22:39.800
Dr. Ian Dunbar: You're trying to dominate me.
00:22:39.820 --> 00:22:42.760
Dr. Ian Dunbar: Oh, I'm going to give you an alpha rollover and make your life a misery.
00:22:43.020 --> 00:22:44.080
Dr. Ian Dunbar: I just laugh.
00:22:44.300 --> 00:22:48.140
Dr. Ian Dunbar: And so then I'll call another dog up on the couch and say, hey, Duke, come on the couch.
00:22:48.420 --> 00:22:48.940
Dr. Ian Dunbar: Good boy.
00:22:48.960 --> 00:22:50.460
Dr. Ian Dunbar: Do you want one of Hugo's cookies?
00:22:50.480 --> 00:22:52.500
Dr. Ian Dunbar: Do you want another treat of Hugo's?
00:22:52.520 --> 00:22:54.580
Dr. Ian Dunbar: You want to buy about the six one.
00:22:54.600 --> 00:22:57.300
Dr. Ian Dunbar: Hugo then says, can I come on the couch?
00:22:57.880 --> 00:22:58.920
Tim Link: I love that.
00:22:59.160 --> 00:23:01.180
Tim Link: Eat your vegetables before you get your pudding.
00:23:01.200 --> 00:23:01.720
Tim Link: I think so.
00:23:01.740 --> 00:23:03.320
Tim Link: I love it.
00:23:03.860 --> 00:23:05.620
Tim Link: All right, we're going to take a quick commercial break.
00:23:05.640 --> 00:23:08.600
Tim Link: We'll come back and continue our conversation with Dr.
00:23:08.600 --> 00:23:09.180
Tim Link: Ian Dunbar.
00:23:09.200 --> 00:23:14.920
Tim Link: Talk a little bit more about his latest book, Barking Up the Right Tree, The Science Practice of Positive Dog Training.
00:23:15.340 --> 00:23:16.340
Tim Link: So everybody hang tight.
00:23:16.360 --> 00:23:18.040
Tim Link: We'll come back right after this commercial break.
00:23:18.260 --> 00:23:20.960
Tim Link: You're listening to Animal Writes on Pet Life Radio.
00:23:25.040 --> 00:23:31.280
Tim Link: Hi, this is Tim Link, animal communicator and pet expert, and host of Animal Writes on Pet Life Radio.
00:23:31.400 --> 00:23:34.000
Tim Link: Have you ever wanted to know what your pet is really thinking?
00:23:34.020 --> 00:23:37.240
Tim Link: Do you want to find out if they truly understand what you're trying to tell them?
00:23:37.400 --> 00:23:40.900
Tim Link: Or wish you could build a better understanding and closer relationship with your pet?
00:23:40.980 --> 00:23:41.980
Tim Link: Well, now you can.
00:23:42.200 --> 00:23:45.820
Tim Link: Learning to communicate with animals is a four-part on-demand workshop.
00:23:46.040 --> 00:24:03.740
Tim Link: In the workshop, you'll learn the essential techniques that are necessary to communicate with animals, including what is animal communication, breathing correctly to achieve the perfect state to communicate with your animals at a deeper level, using guided meditation exercises and methods to communicate with animals, and how to send and receive information from your animals.
00:24:03.960 --> 00:24:14.240
Tim Link: So if you're wanting to learn how to communicate and connect with your animals at a deeper level, visit petliferadio.com forward slash workshop and purchase and download Learning to Communicate with Animals.
00:24:14.300 --> 00:24:14.980
Tim Link: You'll be glad you did.
00:24:25.162 --> 00:24:27.622
Announcer: petliferadio.com.
00:24:29.782 --> 00:24:32.662
Tim Link: Welcome back to Animal Writes on Pet Life Radio.
00:24:32.662 --> 00:24:34.862
Tim Link: Continuing our conversation with Dr.
00:24:35.222 --> 00:24:37.882
Tim Link: Ian Dunbar and his book, Barking Up the Right Tree.
00:24:38.542 --> 00:24:51.282
Tim Link: Now, you talked before the break a little bit about putting together this book and the painfulness of trying to weed out or your editor saying great book, make it half the size.
00:24:51.302 --> 00:24:52.242
Tim Link: A third of the size.
00:24:52.382 --> 00:24:54.342
Tim Link: And it's a good size book as it is.
00:24:54.462 --> 00:24:57.462
Tim Link: And so I can imagine what you had to go through.
00:24:57.482 --> 00:24:59.582
Tim Link: How did you go about doing that?
00:24:59.602 --> 00:25:04.342
Tim Link: Did you sort of take a step back and say, okay, well, these parts I can put in a different book.
00:25:04.362 --> 00:25:05.702
Tim Link: Maybe we'll have three books.
00:25:05.942 --> 00:25:16.762
Dr. Ian Dunbar: I made a very difficult decision up front that the book was is about changing the behavior of animals, you know, obviously dogs, horses, cats and stuff.
00:25:17.182 --> 00:25:25.822
Dr. Ian Dunbar: But people included how it applies to interacting with your children, your employees, your spouse or friends or what have you.
00:25:26.162 --> 00:25:37.702
Dr. Ian Dunbar: So I took all the human examples out and we're going to, I'm actually going to write this with my son, another book on the same principles applied to living with people and motivating people.
00:25:37.702 --> 00:25:41.022
Dr. Ian Dunbar: So that took out about 200,000 words.
00:25:41.322 --> 00:25:47.742
Dr. Ian Dunbar: And so it was painful, but I thought this would be a lovely opportunity where I can work with my son and I loved doing that.
00:25:48.202 --> 00:25:52.462
Dr. Ian Dunbar: And so that was, you know, that was cool.
00:25:52.642 --> 00:25:54.042
Dr. Ian Dunbar: I would like to say one thing though.
00:25:54.262 --> 00:26:00.082
Dr. Ian Dunbar: I actually being English, I get very uptight when we're plugging something of mine like the book.
00:26:00.102 --> 00:26:04.022
Dr. Ian Dunbar: Firstly, thank you for mentioning it because it's a very good book and it'll help a lot of people.
00:26:04.542 --> 00:26:11.522
Dr. Ian Dunbar: But years ago, I made a decision to make a lot of my other books available for free so people can get these.
00:26:11.522 --> 00:26:20.922
Dr. Ian Dunbar: They can download them for free from dunbaracademy.com and they click on a course that's called the Free Course Collection.
00:26:20.942 --> 00:26:24.882
Dr. Ian Dunbar: Then they scroll down and there's some free puppy training courses.
00:26:25.262 --> 00:26:28.962
Dr. Ian Dunbar: And then it says, I think, two free puppy training ebooks.
00:26:29.422 --> 00:26:36.942
Dr. Ian Dunbar: Well, when they click on that, they'll find there are actually three free ebooks, two about puppy training and one about adult dog training.
00:26:37.282 --> 00:26:41.642
Dr. Ian Dunbar: And they just download for free and they'll find lots of other free offers there.
00:26:41.842 --> 00:26:46.902
Dr. Ian Dunbar: You know, I just thought that I wanted to get to owners when they're thinking of getting a puppy.
00:26:47.322 --> 00:26:52.642
Dr. Ian Dunbar: Every adult dog was once a puppy begging for education, but the owners didn't know what to do.
00:26:52.662 --> 00:26:55.942
Dr. Ian Dunbar: So by the time the puppy is just three months old, it's too late.
00:26:55.962 --> 00:26:59.862
Dr. Ian Dunbar: They've missed it all, especially the early socialization stuff.
00:27:00.142 --> 00:27:07.362
Dr. Ian Dunbar: And so as sure as eggs is eggs, when they're five months old, they're starting to become afraid of people and other dogs.
00:27:07.842 --> 00:27:09.582
Dr. Ian Dunbar: And at eight months, you can't walk them.
00:27:09.682 --> 00:27:18.542
Dr. Ian Dunbar: They are dog dog reactive, but you prevent all of this in early puppyhood, fear of people, and then immediately getting into an off leash puppy class.
00:27:18.702 --> 00:27:23.542
Dr. Ian Dunbar: So I thought if I had something they could download, they could share it with everyone.
00:27:23.862 --> 00:27:26.702
Dr. Ian Dunbar: So please, viewers out there, listen to me.
00:27:27.722 --> 00:27:31.682
Dr. Ian Dunbar: I love radio, but this is the only radio program I've done where I can't see the clock.
00:27:32.142 --> 00:27:37.462
Dr. Ian Dunbar: I like radio because it's time for the second, so I know when to shut up because I do talk a lot.
00:27:37.802 --> 00:27:43.222
Dr. Ian Dunbar: So please download these books and share them with every doggy person that you know.
00:27:43.522 --> 00:27:52.062
Dr. Ian Dunbar: That would make me really happy because we have to change the way it is for dogs, because they've been deserted by every dog profession.
00:27:52.082 --> 00:28:00.202
Dr. Ian Dunbar: There's no dog profession, breeders, vets, pet store owners that tell new puppy owners what to do, even though they see every new puppy.
00:28:00.722 --> 00:28:01.742
Dr. Ian Dunbar: It's a crying shame.
00:28:02.002 --> 00:28:10.462
Dr. Ian Dunbar: And although I love dogs and cows with a passion, but I care even more for puppy owners.
00:28:10.842 --> 00:28:11.762
Dr. Ian Dunbar: They're being cheated.
00:28:12.142 --> 00:28:16.602
Dr. Ian Dunbar: So if they get this information up front, they know what's urgent, what's important.
00:28:16.722 --> 00:28:17.522
Dr. Ian Dunbar: Let's get to it.
00:28:17.562 --> 00:28:18.582
Dr. Ian Dunbar: The clock is running.
00:28:19.042 --> 00:28:23.862
Dr. Ian Dunbar: And then their puppy won't develop fears of the environment of people and other dogs.
00:28:24.022 --> 00:28:26.062
Dr. Ian Dunbar: So sorry, I just got on my soapbox.
00:28:26.082 --> 00:28:27.462
Tim Link: No, no, that's perfect.
00:28:27.482 --> 00:28:33.582
Tim Link: That is perfect and we'll definitely post the site dunbaracademy.com, and everybody can go download those free ebooks.
00:28:33.582 --> 00:28:39.082
Tim Link: And if you're thinking about getting a puppy or you just got a puppy into your life, definitely download those.
00:28:39.082 --> 00:28:44.222
Tim Link: Get a good start to the puppy's life and your life and your relationship with them.
00:28:44.402 --> 00:28:46.182
Tim Link: And then we'll circle back one last plug.
00:28:46.302 --> 00:28:50.162
Tim Link: You can buy the book Barking Up the Right Tree, the Science and Practice of Positive Dog Training.
00:28:50.622 --> 00:28:52.262
Tim Link: And that would just make it even better.
00:28:52.342 --> 00:28:54.102
Tim Link: So we'll hit it from both fronts.
00:28:54.122 --> 00:28:54.502
Tim Link: How's that?
00:28:54.862 --> 00:28:55.582
Dr. Ian Dunbar: Thank you.
00:28:58.282 --> 00:28:58.902
Tim Link: All right.
00:28:58.962 --> 00:29:00.222
Tim Link: Well, we'll look forward to that.
00:29:00.242 --> 00:29:01.482
Tim Link: And I look forward to the other book too.
00:29:01.502 --> 00:29:12.762
Tim Link: I will say that I've been making sort of just casual references about how, you know, treating your dogs the way you would treat your kids or treat yourself and learning early on and building those relationships.
00:29:13.002 --> 00:29:20.022
Tim Link: And it sounds like the companion book that you're going to be writing with your son will lead right down that perfect path because there's a lot of training we need too.
00:29:20.442 --> 00:29:25.962
Dr. Ian Dunbar: It's all about talking to your dog and talking to your children and talking to your employees.
00:29:26.322 --> 00:29:30.942
Dr. Ian Dunbar: You know, when you have a good dialogue going, we don't get the problems.
00:29:31.242 --> 00:29:36.822
Dr. Ian Dunbar: You know, one thing I often mention is my son and I have never had an argument.
00:29:36.982 --> 00:29:39.242
Dr. Ian Dunbar: We actually can't because he works with me now.
00:29:39.582 --> 00:29:47.122
Dr. Ian Dunbar: We did come close about a few months ago where we had, let's say a heated discussion about the way our business should go.
00:29:47.562 --> 00:29:51.882
Dr. Ian Dunbar: But we've never had an argument because we talk about stuff.
00:29:52.162 --> 00:29:54.322
Dr. Ian Dunbar: And I say, well, how would you like to do it then?
00:29:54.342 --> 00:29:55.842
Dr. Ian Dunbar: What would you like to do today?
00:29:56.262 --> 00:29:58.442
Dr. Ian Dunbar: And usually I say, yeah, do that.
00:29:58.542 --> 00:30:00.822
Dr. Ian Dunbar: It's not mutually exclusive to what I want.
00:30:01.002 --> 00:30:05.442
Dr. Ian Dunbar: Let's do what we both want and see which one is more enjoyable and works better.
00:30:05.722 --> 00:30:08.002
Dr. Ian Dunbar: And so, you know, talking is everything.
00:30:08.022 --> 00:30:13.342
Dr. Ian Dunbar: And today, you know, you look at people in a restaurant and they both got their heads buried in their iPhone.
00:30:13.562 --> 00:30:19.462
Dr. Ian Dunbar: They come on already and no one's coming over to chat like the good old days, you know?
00:30:19.702 --> 00:30:25.502
Dr. Ian Dunbar: And so it's very directly applicable to human-human relationships too.
00:30:25.762 --> 00:30:26.262
Tim Link: I love it.
00:30:26.342 --> 00:30:26.822
Tim Link: I love it.
00:30:26.842 --> 00:30:30.982
Tim Link: Well, put the iPhones down and get chatting again with the humans around you.
00:30:31.202 --> 00:30:35.862
Tim Link: And by the way, when you're out walking your dog, how about putting the iPhone down there and connecting with your animal?
00:30:35.882 --> 00:30:37.902
Tim Link: I think you could just put the iPhone down.
00:30:37.962 --> 00:30:38.462
Tim Link: How's that?
00:30:38.482 --> 00:30:39.382
Tim Link: That's a good message.
00:30:39.562 --> 00:30:53.422
Dr. Ian Dunbar: I actually tell people to have a period during their walk with the dog, where they find a park bench and sit down and let the dog just lie down and chill, watch the world go by or sniff, and you check your iPhone then.
00:30:53.582 --> 00:30:57.522
Dr. Ian Dunbar: Then put it away and just daydream because we don't do that enough.
00:30:57.642 --> 00:31:00.182
Dr. Ian Dunbar: Today's modern day living is too fast.
00:31:00.622 --> 00:31:08.242
Dr. Ian Dunbar: You need like 15 minutes out in the day to chill and stroke your brain again, to get it back into working order.
00:31:08.982 --> 00:31:09.982
Tim Link: Love it.
00:31:10.002 --> 00:31:15.122
Tim Link: Well, sage advice for being with our animals, as well as being with the people around us.
00:31:15.142 --> 00:31:17.322
Tim Link: So a good big kudos on you there.
00:31:17.602 --> 00:31:22.142
Tim Link: So the last plug, Barking Up the Right Tree, The Science and Practice of Positive Dog Training by Dr.
00:31:22.162 --> 00:31:22.782
Tim Link: Ian Dunbar.
00:31:22.802 --> 00:31:24.502
Tim Link: Everybody go out and pick up a copy of that.
00:31:24.842 --> 00:31:27.782
Tim Link: Definitely download the training sessions for your puppies.
00:31:27.802 --> 00:31:28.902
Tim Link: We'll get that all posted.
00:31:28.922 --> 00:31:29.862
Tim Link: And Dr.
00:31:29.882 --> 00:31:31.742
Tim Link: Dunbar is fantastic to talk to you.
00:31:31.762 --> 00:31:45.142
Tim Link: I love your insights, not only with the animals and all the passion and history you have with them, but I love the insights on human behavior and how we can build the best relationships possible with the animals as well as the humans in our life.
00:31:45.442 --> 00:31:46.282
Dr. Ian Dunbar: Thank you, Tim.
00:31:46.282 --> 00:31:48.182
Dr. Ian Dunbar: And you are a very good interviewer.
00:31:48.222 --> 00:31:58.682
Dr. Ian Dunbar: And I think it's because you're radio, that radio people know how to ask questions, whereas TV interviewers are just making asinine jokes and looking cute on TV.
00:31:58.702 --> 00:32:00.222
Dr. Ian Dunbar: I really enjoyed this.
00:32:00.242 --> 00:32:04.982
Dr. Ian Dunbar: It reminded me of the good old days when I did a regular radio gig in San Francisco.
00:32:05.002 --> 00:32:05.942
Dr. Ian Dunbar: And I loved it.
00:32:05.962 --> 00:32:11.842
Dr. Ian Dunbar: Smoking cigars with this guy, watching the clock to the second and just chatting about stuff.
00:32:11.842 --> 00:32:13.022
Dr. Ian Dunbar: So I really enjoyed it.
00:32:13.042 --> 00:32:15.642
Dr. Ian Dunbar: Thank you for having me and I'm available anytime.
00:32:15.662 --> 00:32:17.742
Dr. Ian Dunbar: And thank you everyone out there for listening.
00:32:17.902 --> 00:32:19.022
Dr. Ian Dunbar: Download and share them.
00:32:19.182 --> 00:32:19.882
Tim Link: Absolutely.
00:32:19.902 --> 00:32:20.542
Tim Link: Fantastic.
00:32:20.562 --> 00:32:20.982
Tim Link: Pleasure.
00:32:21.062 --> 00:32:22.962
Tim Link: Pleasure is all mine and do appreciate it.
00:32:22.982 --> 00:32:25.882
Tim Link: Fun, fun chat and great insight as well.
00:32:25.902 --> 00:32:27.602
Tim Link: So it's a win-win all the way around.
00:32:27.622 --> 00:32:33.002
Tim Link: So we'll look forward to chatting with you when the next book or the next any opportunity comes about.
00:32:33.162 --> 00:32:34.002
Dr. Ian Dunbar: Anytime you like.
00:32:34.102 --> 00:32:34.982
Tim Link: Fantastic.
00:32:35.002 --> 00:32:36.382
Tim Link: Well, we're coming to the end of the show today.
00:32:36.402 --> 00:32:39.902
Tim Link: I want to thank everyone for listening to Animal Writes on Pet Life Radio.
00:32:40.062 --> 00:32:43.602
Tim Link: I want to thank the sponsors and producers for making this show possible.
00:32:43.762 --> 00:32:48.682
Tim Link: If you have any comments, questions, ideas for the show, you can drop us a line at petliferadio.com.
00:32:48.902 --> 00:32:52.062
Tim Link: And while you're there, check out all the other wonderful hosts and shows.
00:32:52.182 --> 00:32:54.662
Tim Link: It's a cornucopia of animal fun.
00:32:55.102 --> 00:32:58.242
Tim Link: So until next time, write a great story about the animals in your life.
00:32:58.302 --> 00:33:02.622
Tim Link: And who knows, you may be the next guest on Animal Writes on Pet Life Radio.
00:33:02.922 --> 00:33:03.562
Tim Link: Have a great day.
00:33:04.242 --> 00:33:09.642
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