Non-Recognition Feline Aggression
Michael Herbert took one of his cats to the vet. After coming home, aggression immediately started between his cats. They always got along before, what happened? He was shocked to learn about Feline Non-Recognition Aggression, which happens when a cat’s scent has changed due to a vet visit, grooming, or boarding visit, or other such time when the cats lived apart. Why hadn't his veterinarian warned him about this possibility when one of his cats had to stay at the animal hospital for treatment?
Michael and Dr. Rachel Geller, join Rita and Linda to discuss what this phenomenon is and what we can do to avoid it. This is something that is just now being understood and talked about in the cat community. We feel that ALL cat parents need to know about Feline Non-Recognition Aggression and the best ways to prevent it from happening to your cats.
Listen to Episode #133 Now:
BIO:
Rachel Geller, Ed.D. is a certified Cat Behavior and Retention Specialist through the Humane Society and a certified Humane Education Specialist through the Academy of Prosocial Learning. She is also a certified Pet Chaplain® through the Association of Veterinary Pastoral Education. Rachel consults with many cat shelters and is certified as a Fear Free Shelter specialist. She was on The Cat Connection Board of Directors from 2017 to 2020. Previously, she was on the Board of Directors in the role of vice-president at the Gifford Cat Shelter for 7 years. She is currently a cat behaviorist/consultant for The Cat Connection, Here Today Adopted Tomorrow Animal Sanctuary and Baypath Humane Society, and provides cat behavior help both locally and throughout the country to her clients, including cat owners and shelters.
Transcript:
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Announcer: This is Pet Life Radio.
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Announcer: Let's talk pets.
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Linda Hall: Hello, my cat-loving friends.
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Linda Hall: I want you to imagine the person closest to you, partner, child, whatever, that person, that person, comes home and says, hi, it's me so-and-so, but they don't look like themselves.
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Linda Hall: How freaky for you, how freaky for them.
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Linda Hall: What's it gonna take for you to understand this?
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Linda Hall: This is something that happens to our cats every day.
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Linda Hall: It is a hot point with Rita and I, and we are so happy to say that we have got our dear friend, Dr.
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Linda Hall: Rachel Geller, back with us, and she has brought Michael Herbert, who is just a guy who had this happen to his cats, and he is on a mission to help.
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Linda Hall: You do not want to miss this.
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Linda Hall: We'll be right back.
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Linda Hall: Hey, it's Linda Hall from 19 Cats and Counting.
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Rita Reimers: And I'm Rita Reimers from 19 Cats and Counting.
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Rita Reimers: You know the expression that cats have nine lives?
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Rita Reimers: Well, what if you can give them one more?
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Rita Reimers: The Give Them 10 movement is on a mission to help give cats an extra life.
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Linda Hall: How?
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Linda Hall: With spay and neuter.
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Linda Hall: Spaying or neutering your cat helps them live a longer, healthier life.
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Linda Hall: And it helps control the free roaming cat populations too.
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Linda Hall: You can learn more about the benefits of spay and neuter and meet Scooter, the neutered cat, at givethemten.org.
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Rita Reimers: That's givethemten.org.
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Announcer: Let's talk pets on petliferadio.com.
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Linda Hall: Welcome back to 19 Cats and Counting.
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Linda Hall: I am your co-host, Linda Hall, here as always with my gorgeous blonde BFF, Rita Reimers.
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Rita Reimers: We get a call about this at least once a week, and Dr.
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Rita Reimers: Geller also, this is a hot topic for her as well.
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Rita Reimers: And I think one that we really need to bring to the forefront are veterinarians really need to get involved in this too, because they really don't do anything to help the situation.
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Rita Reimers: Linda, do you wanna take us to our guests?
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Linda Hall: So Michael, so I set up this scenario, right?
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Linda Hall: Your BFF, partner child, whatever, shows up, and they are not, you know, your blonde friend is now brunette, and the blue eyes are brown, and think about that.
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Linda Hall: Yeah, it's like the movie Face, and honey, soap operas do it all the time.
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Linda Hall: People are constantly dying and coming back as new actors.
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Linda Hall: So explain to us how, I said this happens with our cats.
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Linda Hall: We know this is called feline non-recognition aggression.
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Linda Hall: Explain to us what that means and what you experienced.
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Michael Herbert: Yeah, so we had a situation where one cat went to the vet.
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Michael Herbert: We have two cats, they're brothers, they're litter mates, they're of the highest social order of cats in the sense that they are affiliative, they alogroom, they are very affectionate towards one another.
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Michael Herbert: And we came home from the vet, this was six days after Thanksgiving, and one of the cats was drooling a lot.
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Michael Herbert: So we took just that cat to the vet, they'd always been together.
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Michael Herbert: And when we came home, we opened the cat carrier on the living room floor, and we were instantly transported to Africa, where two male leopards were fighting with each other.
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Michael Herbert: And we had no idea, no idea what was happening.
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Michael Herbert: And so it turns out that as I've learned over the last three months, that cats don't recognize each other by vision, they recognize each other by scent.
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Michael Herbert: And we'll get into some of the details of that.
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Michael Herbert: But I do want to tell you the entire story here, because it is crazy what can happen if this happens in your household.
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Michael Herbert: And my mission is that this shouldn't happen in anyone's household, and it's really easy to avoid it.
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Michael Herbert: And so why aren't vets giving a simple instruction that will avoid this?
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Michael Herbert: And we'll talk about what that instruction should be.
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Michael Herbert: But so after the cat came home and we had these couple of really major fights, we started looking into what this was, and we had no idea.
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Michael Herbert: It's called feline non-recognition aggression.
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Michael Herbert: It is really clear from its name what it is.
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Michael Herbert: The cat doesn't recognize the other cat, just like your best friend is no longer recognizable.
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Michael Herbert: And this happens because the cat that went to the vet, whose name is, well, his original name was Bugatti, but he became very mellow, so now we call him Buddha instead of Bugatti.
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Michael Herbert: So Buddha went to the vet and came home and was attacked by his brother, Cortado.
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Michael Herbert: Cortado is the name of a coffee drink and we love coffee in this house, so that's how the cats got their name.
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Michael Herbert: So we don't have very many doors in our house on the main level.
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Michael Herbert: In fact, our bedroom, which has lever doors, is the only door that locks except for a bathroom or a pantry.
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Michael Herbert: And so we had to basically zip tie those doors because both cats know how to open the doors.
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Michael Herbert: In one of the arches to one of the rooms, the entryway, you know, no door but an arch, I had to build a barrier.
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Michael Herbert: And unfortunately, the first version one of the barrier was not strong enough.
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Michael Herbert: Cortado broke into the room once and then a second time when we had him in the room, he broke out to attack his brother again.
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Michael Herbert: So I have clumps of hair at home from these.
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Michael Herbert: And so basically, we finally took after consulting with various people and anticruelty.org in Chicago, we found somebody there, she was very helpful.
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Michael Herbert: And by the way, they have already adopted changes to their adoption packets and to their vet experiences based on the situation of Buddha and Cortado.
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Rita Reimers: Fantastic.
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Michael Herbert: Basically, first we tried Zyclean and Feliway, that was not gonna work.
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Michael Herbert: We eventually had to go to a behavioral vet who put first Cortado on Prozac, but we realized that Buddha has fright issues also, so they're both on Prozac.
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Michael Herbert: Unfortunately, it wasn't either the gel kind or the kind you put in their ears.
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Michael Herbert: I wish we would have gotten that, but they're on such a low dose now that we haven't worried about switching it out.
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Michael Herbert: And they have gone completely back now to being affiliative, loving brothers.
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Michael Herbert: They're Bengals, so they do play hard still, but it's not like they're trying to kill each other.
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Michael Herbert: And guess how long it took?
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Michael Herbert: Four months and 22 days.
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Rita Reimers: I'm not surprised, really.
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Michael Herbert: We're writing that.
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Michael Herbert: And the bad thing here is for some people, the cats never make up.
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Michael Herbert: We have a friend whose sister had this happen and their cats never made up.
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Michael Herbert: They were both constantly stressed and then one of the cats ended up passing away.
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Michael Herbert: Before they could get them back together again.
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Michael Herbert: So it is a really, really serious situation and it's actually pretty simple to avoid.
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Michael Herbert: When a cat goes back from a vet in a multi-cat household, there should always be an instruction, separate the cats and slowly evaluate how they're going to do without letting one, two, three, four, five, 19 cats all together.
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Michael Herbert: You know, that qualifies for general population.
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Rita Reimers: I actually really do have 19 cats.
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Linda Hall: I have 12.
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Linda Hall: I'm a lightweight.
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Michael Herbert: You just can't under the concept of do no harm, which every medical ethical standard, whether it be veterinarians or doctors, you know, they all have it.
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Michael Herbert: It's really simple.
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Michael Herbert: It doesn't take anything to do that.
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Michael Herbert: And once you do that, you avoid a lot of problems.
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Michael Herbert: So a cat has 200 million send receptors in its nasal cavity.
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Michael Herbert: A human has 5 million.
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Michael Herbert: So imagine that.
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Linda Hall: They can smell things we've never dreamed of.
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Michael Herbert: Right.
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Rita Reimers: And we don't want to smell.
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Michael Herbert: If you could go to a Michelin star restaurant and smell like a cat can smell, imagine what a different experience that would be.
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Rita Reimers: I don't think I would enjoy that very much.
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Dr. Rachel Geller: And it was sensory overload.
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Linda Hall: Yes, that's the secret to, you know, no, this supplement doesn't have a scent to it.
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Linda Hall: I'll add it to my cat's food.
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Linda Hall: The cat goes, I beg to differ, darling.
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Linda Hall: It definitely smells differently.
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Linda Hall: So yes.
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Linda Hall: So and in our experience, working with behavior clients who have had this happen, it really is a start over and introduce them as if they've never met thing.
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Linda Hall: Is that how you deal with it, Dr.
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Linda Hall: Rachel?
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Dr. Rachel Geller: Yes.
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Dr. Rachel Geller: I advise my clients to pretend they've never seen each other.
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Dr. Rachel Geller: They've never met each other.
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Dr. Rachel Geller: Or when I start telling clients about scent swapping, they'll say, why should I do that?
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Dr. Rachel Geller: They already have spelt each other in the past, but we want to take everything down to ground zero.
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Dr. Rachel Geller: We want to start off with a clean slate and do really a complete reintroduction, like Linda said, exactly as if the cats have never met before.
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Dr. Rachel Geller: And so we want to start off with that scent swapping.
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Dr. Rachel Geller: And one thing about doing the scent swapping, and I always tell people to use a sock and gather those facial pheromone, and rub the cat body, and then put that sock in a neutral area for the cat who's in the separate room, and same for the cat who didn't go to the vet.
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Dr. Rachel Geller: Because when you allow the cat to investigate something on his own, if you set it up so the cat feels like it's all his idea, this works great on my husband too, by the way.
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Linda Hall: Thank you.
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Dr. Rachel Geller: Cats are so reactive to scent, and they so want to be in control, and they want predictability, they want to know what's going on.
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Dr. Rachel Geller: So with using the sock for the scent swapping, you're really giving that control back to the cat.
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Dr. Rachel Geller: And when you think about, you know, do no harm, it does no harm to reintroduce two cats, but it can do irreparable, irrevocable harm if you don't do it.
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Dr. Rachel Geller: And as Michael said, there are some cats who just never get back together again, because once cats get into that destructive cycle, of fear and aggression, it's very hard to get them back out again.
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Dr. Rachel Geller: Now, usually it's a matter of time and patience, right?
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Dr. Rachel Geller: But a lot of people don't want to be doing a reintroduction for the next year of their lives.
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Rita Reimers: Think about how they live out in nature, right?
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Rita Reimers: I mean, they adopt a common scent in the clowder.
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Rita Reimers: So when an interloper comes in, or another cat, or even just any kind of predator, they smell that right away, so they're on high alert.
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Rita Reimers: So that saves their life a lot of times.
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Rita Reimers: Cats are right in the middle of the food chain, both predator and prey.
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Rita Reimers: So they're set up for survival based on what they smell.
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Dr. Rachel Geller: And when you think about it, the cat returns from the vat, smelling like other cats, other dogs, other opponents, medicine, the vat, anyone who was in touch with that cat, like there's nothing familiar anymore on that cat.
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Dr. Rachel Geller: So that's very unsettling for the cat who's back in.
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Linda Hall: Yes, and we err on the side of safety, right?
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Linda Hall: I often give the analogy, I broke down on the road in the dead of winter in Ohio a couple of years ago, and I call my husband, he's like, I'll be there, but it's going to be 30 minutes.
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Linda Hall: This man suddenly appears at my window and says, ma'am, do you need help?
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Linda Hall: And yes, I did.
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Linda Hall: And he could have had that donut on and had me in the road.
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Linda Hall: And we all know there's a 99% chance he was a really nice man who just wanted to help.
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Linda Hall: But there's a small percent of chance that he's an escaped convict, mass murderer.
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Linda Hall: And therefore, I lied to that man and said, my husband's one minute behind me, but thank you very much.
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Linda Hall: Petrified for my life.
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Linda Hall: If I make the wrong assumption about this person and trust them, it could cost me my life.
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Linda Hall: That's what your cats are going through.
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Linda Hall: I don't know if I can trust this being.
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Linda Hall: And if I don't, it can cost me my life.
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Rita Reimers: That's what happened with Michael's cats.
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Linda Hall: Yes.
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Linda Hall: What a horrible mindset for these cats to be in, fearing like this, with this interloper stranger that just came in.
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Dr. Rachel Geller: And it's completely preventable.
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Dr. Rachel Geller: That's the sad part about this whole thing.
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Rita Reimers: Exactly.
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Rita Reimers: Exactly.
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Rita Reimers: Just some simple instructions from the veterinarian.
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Rita Reimers: But see, like I was saying before we started taping, that's our, they know medicine, right?
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Rita Reimers: They don't really know behavior, unless you have a vet behaviorist, they don't really know behavior the way that we do, or the way that somebody who lives with cats do.
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Rita Reimers: A lot of vets don't live with cats.
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Rita Reimers: Some do, some don't.
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Rita Reimers: And there's not many vet specialists that specialize in just cats.
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Michael Herbert: So besides that fear and the long-term estrangement, in part comes from just, another thing that I've learned you can just see is just turf battles.
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Michael Herbert: I mean, they may get along, but they may have turf battles.
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Michael Herbert: And the one thing that we haven't mentioned in this is, I out of ignorance broke up one of the cat fights.
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Michael Herbert: I was physically shaking four hours later.
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Michael Herbert: So you also have the risk of personal injury.
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Rita Reimers: Did you get bit?
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Rita Reimers: Did you get bit, Michael?
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Michael Herbert: No, I did not get it.
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Michael Herbert: I did not get hurt.
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Michael Herbert: But I, it was so traumatic.
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Michael Herbert: Fortunately, there was a jacket close enough by after I picked up the one cat, I could cover him with a jacket and did not get hurt and that diffused it all.
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Michael Herbert: But the, you know, my wife said to me after one of the fights, I've never screamed louder in my life.
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Michael Herbert: And I said even in childbirth, and she said no.
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Linda Hall: Oh, it's petrifying.
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Linda Hall: You have these beings that you love as if they were your furry children and you know them.
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Linda Hall: And so many people have said to us, because we always say, you know, when you're bringing them out together, do not stick your hands in there, throw a blanket over and toss it in the trash, double block.
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Linda Hall: My cat will never bite me here.
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Rita Reimers: No, not on purpose.
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Linda Hall: Never.
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Linda Hall: And yet we've talked to people with their arms wrapped up.
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Linda Hall: Let's see what that one lady had, staples in her head.
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Rita Reimers: Remember the lady in Iran?
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Linda Hall: Yes, all wrapped up, IV antibiotics, the whole work.
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Dr. Rachel Geller: And then someone sent link to a cat owner to watch your cat suddenly turn into Kubojo.
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Dr. Rachel Geller: Yeah.
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Dr. Rachel Geller: And it's very scary.
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Dr. Rachel Geller: So then we're emitting all of our fear hormones.
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Dr. Rachel Geller: The cats don't recognize each other either by smell.
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Dr. Rachel Geller: They're emitting all their fear hormones.
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Dr. Rachel Geller: I mean, it really gets in this awful.
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Linda Hall: It's a cluster, right?
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Linda Hall: It's a whirling dervish that never ends.
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Dr. Rachel Geller: Yes.
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Michael Herbert: So the consequence is there's a lot of bad stuff that can happen from the consequence of not giving this very simple instruction.
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Michael Herbert: And here's the thing.
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Michael Herbert: So many vets have gone to electronic scheduling, and you get an appointment reminder in your email.
00:15:46.316 --> 00:15:57.796
Michael Herbert: So it doesn't take much to just put at the bottom of the email, if you're going to be coming from a multi-cat family, you must read this before you come.
00:15:57.796 --> 00:16:05.116
Michael Herbert: And there are already resources out there, and I'm going to make more resources out there, already have some.
00:16:05.116 --> 00:16:11.396
Michael Herbert: And I just want to tell everybody that there is a website where I've collected all this information.
00:16:11.396 --> 00:16:12.916
Michael Herbert: It's called felinenonrecognitionaggression.com.
00:16:14.796 --> 00:16:16.356
Michael Herbert: It's all one word.
00:16:16.356 --> 00:16:17.436
Michael Herbert: You can find it.
00:16:17.436 --> 00:16:23.596
Michael Herbert: It's got Buddha's story on it, and it's got a bunch of resources for the veterinarians.
00:16:23.596 --> 00:16:35.636
Michael Herbert: If you experience this felinenonrecognitionaggression and your vet didn't tell you about it, include it on the website is a letter you can send to your own vet to educate them on it.
00:16:35.636 --> 00:16:44.896
Michael Herbert: And so, if you want to read more about it, there are a bunch of articles, there's YouTube videos, so everything you really need to know.
00:16:45.116 --> 00:16:50.596
Michael Herbert: I also started a Facebook group called Before My Cat Goes to the Vet.
00:16:50.596 --> 00:17:08.736
Michael Herbert: And so, it's just, I want to eventually over time get this word out and get the information in the hands of people because, okay, we had an extreme case, but why should anybody have a case even if it's small?
00:17:08.736 --> 00:17:13.936
Michael Herbert: And when, especially when you don't know about it, the first time, it is incredibly disconcerting.
00:17:14.636 --> 00:17:26.236
Michael Herbert: And even if you know about it as a human, every time it happens, it adds more stress to the cat, which means the cat that went to the vet isn't going to recover as quickly.
00:17:26.236 --> 00:17:33.016
Michael Herbert: And it means the other cats in the house have unneeded stress, you know, that they don't really need either.
00:17:33.016 --> 00:17:35.816
Michael Herbert: And so, it's just so unsettling.
00:17:35.816 --> 00:17:37.336
Rita Reimers: It's a vicious cycle.
00:17:37.336 --> 00:17:40.676
Rita Reimers: Before we get into more about this, let's take a quick break from our sponsor.
00:17:40.676 --> 00:17:41.676
Rita Reimers: We'll be right back.
00:17:42.056 --> 00:17:45.436
Rita Reimers: This is a fascinating topic and it's all too common, very preventable.
00:17:45.436 --> 00:17:46.896
Rita Reimers: We'll be right back.
00:17:49.676 --> 00:17:54.576
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00:19:44.356 --> 00:20:01.796
Rita Reimers: PetLifeRadio.com And we're back with 19 Cats and Counting, talking with Michael Herbert and Rachel Geller, talking about...
00:20:01.796 --> 00:20:03.876
Rita Reimers: I don't know why I can't remember the name of the podcast.
00:20:04.276 --> 00:20:06.856
Linda Hall: B-line non-recognition aggression.
00:20:07.640 --> 00:20:13.060
Linda Hall: And I love what you just said, Michael, about what's happening with the cats, because yeah, let's look at their point of view.
00:20:13.060 --> 00:20:16.620
Linda Hall: So the human's point of view, yeah, my cats are now fighting, what am I gonna do?
00:20:16.620 --> 00:20:20.560
Linda Hall: I'm gonna have to separate them, maybe I'm gonna have to call the behaviorist, this is not cool.
00:20:20.560 --> 00:20:23.040
Linda Hall: We've always had such peace, and I'm so glad the cat's back.
00:20:23.040 --> 00:20:25.200
Linda Hall: Now, let's look at the cat that went to the vet.
00:20:25.300 --> 00:20:28.380
Linda Hall: I often tell our clients, put yourself in your cat's fur.
00:20:28.380 --> 00:20:36.920
Linda Hall: This cat has gone to the vet, it has been an upsetting thing, might have had a speculum shoved up their hiney, they might have got stabbed to the needle, we don't know, they were dogs, it was bad.
00:20:36.920 --> 00:20:37.580
Linda Hall: It was horrible.
00:20:37.580 --> 00:20:39.200
Rita Reimers: Dogs barking, right?
00:20:39.200 --> 00:20:45.500
Linda Hall: And I come home, and this living being that I have been bonded with for so long tries to kill me.
00:20:45.500 --> 00:20:52.820
Linda Hall: It's like, my husband, I've been married over 20 years, he's never done anything to hurt me, probably because Rita said she'd fly you to kill him.
00:20:54.620 --> 00:20:55.620
Linda Hall: That's not why.
00:20:55.620 --> 00:21:04.320
Linda Hall: But if all of a sudden, after over 20 years, he smacked me upside the head, what does this do to my brain, to my heart, to my soul?
00:21:04.320 --> 00:21:06.260
Linda Hall: And how long is it going to take?
00:21:06.260 --> 00:21:13.000
Linda Hall: Even if I understand the circumstances behind it, we're going to therapy and we're doing all this stuff, I'm going to be dodging and weaving every time.
00:21:13.000 --> 00:21:16.220
Rita Reimers: Next time he's near you and he moves, you're going to be like this, right?
00:21:16.220 --> 00:21:20.960
Rita Reimers: So what happens to the cat that's scared when the other cat starts approaching and gets scared?
00:21:21.060 --> 00:21:28.900
Rita Reimers: The other cat gets like, ooh, this is prey, I must chase or maybe he's going to attack me, I have to get him before he gets me, right?
00:21:28.900 --> 00:21:39.260
Rita Reimers: We need to prevent all that and all that stress, because like you said, some cats never go back to the status quo and the relationship never heals, but we need to prevent that from happening.
00:21:39.260 --> 00:21:47.240
Dr. Rachel Geller: Yeah, we want to keep cats in their homes, and this is such a preventable syndrome to have to go through.
00:21:47.240 --> 00:21:53.240
Dr. Rachel Geller: When you think about it, shelters are already overcrowded, there are too many cats and not enough space.
00:21:53.240 --> 00:22:05.260
Dr. Rachel Geller: And to be able to, with Michael's mission, to be able to keep cats who already have a home in their homes and understand what they need to do is a really major big deal, yeah.
00:22:05.260 --> 00:22:10.640
Linda Hall: And I have to say, Michael, this is something, like I said, at least once a week, somebody reaches out to us with this problem.
00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:14.900
Linda Hall: People are in tears and they're hurting, and it kills me.
00:22:14.900 --> 00:22:17.680
Linda Hall: People do not understand how rough it can be to be a behaviorist, yes, Rachel?
00:22:17.800 --> 00:22:20.260
Linda Hall: Because it's very emotional.
00:22:20.260 --> 00:22:29.440
Linda Hall: Sometimes I just got to sit on the bed and just disconnect for a little bit, and family members will come in and I'm like, I just need to be alone to digest this and deal with this.
00:22:29.440 --> 00:22:31.380
Linda Hall: It's awful.
00:22:31.380 --> 00:22:33.000
Dr. Rachel Geller: And it's really bad.
00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:35.480
Rita Reimers: I know what we tell people to prevent it from happening, right?
00:22:35.480 --> 00:22:37.100
Rita Reimers: What do we tell people, Linda?
00:22:37.100 --> 00:22:41.600
Linda Hall: So number one, let's let time, first of all, think about how that scent might have changed.
00:22:41.600 --> 00:22:44.080
Linda Hall: Was there an alcohol swab done?
00:22:44.520 --> 00:22:49.080
Linda Hall: Was there surgery where the anesthesia is coming out of your mouth for quite a while?
00:22:49.080 --> 00:22:50.700
Linda Hall: It comes out of their pores, too.
00:22:50.700 --> 00:22:51.480
Linda Hall: Yes.
00:22:51.480 --> 00:22:55.440
Linda Hall: So give time, especially if there's been a procedure for gosh-dakes, let the cat relax.
00:22:56.240 --> 00:23:05.220
Linda Hall: I know not everyone has 12 cats in their home like I do or 19 like Rita, but sending them back out into gen pop can be really overwhelming.
00:23:05.220 --> 00:23:06.920
Linda Hall: So give them time to chill.
00:23:06.920 --> 00:23:08.600
Linda Hall: Some of those scents will come out.
00:23:08.600 --> 00:23:17.540
Linda Hall: We also discussed really brushing them really well, brushing them again to kind of redeposit their own scent, feeding them stinky cat food to even out the breath.
00:23:17.540 --> 00:23:23.120
Linda Hall: But time really, and it will save you so much in the end.
00:23:23.120 --> 00:23:26.060
Rita Reimers: Especially like people like Michael, Michael has bangles, right?
00:23:26.060 --> 00:23:29.240
Rita Reimers: Bangles are really close to their wild roots, right?
00:23:29.240 --> 00:23:33.660
Rita Reimers: So those cats probably took it harder than our little tabby cats also.
00:23:33.660 --> 00:23:34.100
Dr. Rachel Geller: Yeah.
00:23:34.100 --> 00:23:37.940
Dr. Rachel Geller: And one thing I like to do with the sock is to get everybody's sense going.
00:23:38.080 --> 00:23:41.040
Dr. Rachel Geller: So I'll rub the cat with the other cat's gland.
00:23:41.040 --> 00:23:45.000
Dr. Rachel Geller: I'll rub myself on there and really go back and forth.
00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:53.680
Dr. Rachel Geller: I'll take a t-shirt that I've worn all day, so it's kind of a little smelly and dirty, and then rub the cat who did not go to the vet with that.
00:23:53.680 --> 00:23:56.960
Dr. Rachel Geller: And again, put it in the safe room, the sanctuary room.
00:23:56.960 --> 00:24:00.320
Dr. Rachel Geller: But you don't want to stick it into the cat's bed, right?
00:24:00.320 --> 00:24:06.240
Dr. Rachel Geller: You don't want it into the cat's napping spot, but you want it someplace in a neutral, benign area in the room.
00:24:06.320 --> 00:24:08.100
Dr. Rachel Geller: It was supposed to stay still.
00:24:08.720 --> 00:24:10.060
Dr. Rachel Geller: Yes, for them to check.
00:24:10.060 --> 00:24:13.520
Rita Reimers: Linda likes to say you want them to go nose blind to the other cats.
00:24:13.520 --> 00:24:15.920
Linda Hall: Like the other animals, you've gone nose blind.
00:24:15.920 --> 00:24:17.560
Linda Hall: We don't want to be, who is that cat?
00:24:17.560 --> 00:24:19.080
Linda Hall: You know, it's just, it's been here.
00:24:19.080 --> 00:24:20.400
Linda Hall: So what are you going to say, Michael?
00:24:20.400 --> 00:24:23.120
Rita Reimers: I was going to say, yeah, Michael, tell us what's on your website too.
00:24:23.460 --> 00:24:25.740
Rita Reimers: What is on, what will we find?
00:24:25.740 --> 00:24:26.300
Michael Herbert: Okay.
00:24:26.300 --> 00:24:38.800
Michael Herbert: So before I do that, let me just say, because this actually is on the website, setting up what you guys all just said, I have distilled what I believe should be the simple message from the vet.
00:24:38.800 --> 00:24:48.160
Michael Herbert: And that is on the website under a page called Instructions for Veterinarians to Use in Office or from Patient Portals.
00:24:48.160 --> 00:24:52.240
Michael Herbert: And the four steps really relate to what you guys just said.
00:24:52.240 --> 00:24:59.300
Michael Herbert: First, have a safe space for your cat's recovery after she or he returns from the office here.
00:24:59.300 --> 00:25:03.960
Michael Herbert: Second, because your cat's scent has changed, postpone the cat re-use.
00:25:03.960 --> 00:25:08.560
Michael Herbert: Third, let the scent from the vet dissipate and the medicine wear off.
00:25:08.560 --> 00:25:16.660
Michael Herbert: The fourth, gradually reintroduce the cat following a protocol and judge for yourself how quickly you can proceed.
00:25:16.660 --> 00:25:19.060
Michael Herbert: Each cat's going to be different.
00:25:19.060 --> 00:25:30.620
Michael Herbert: And so we have created, we're in the process, we've created some, but we're also in the process of creating, because people don't often like to read or even watch videos anymore.
00:25:30.760 --> 00:25:41.120
Michael Herbert: We're doing a little infographic, you know, so we're trying to simplify some of these steps so that they at least get in their head.
00:25:41.120 --> 00:25:43.200
Michael Herbert: I can't just throw them back in gen pop.
00:25:43.200 --> 00:25:45.900
Michael Herbert: That's the first thing to make this work.
00:25:45.900 --> 00:25:54.740
Michael Herbert: So, you know, on the website, I'm trying to keep it to, you know, a not overwhelming amount of information.
00:25:54.740 --> 00:26:06.280
Michael Herbert: So we have Buddha's story, which is important, because one thing I didn't say is, this can get really costly if this gets out of hand and you didn't know about it, it could cost thousands and thousands of dollars.
00:26:06.280 --> 00:26:14.540
Michael Herbert: And that's why one of the cats might end up going back to a shelter, because people don't have the money to deal with it, or they don't have the time.
00:26:14.540 --> 00:26:16.660
Rita Reimers: No, they don't have the knowledge, Michael, too.
00:26:16.660 --> 00:26:25.220
Michael Herbert: Yeah, so, well, the second page is the call to action, what I'm trying to get people to do, get themselves educated, get their vets educated.
00:26:25.220 --> 00:26:36.840
Michael Herbert: The third thing is a collection of the articles, you know, solutioned ideas and some YouTube videos that people have done on this topic.
00:26:36.840 --> 00:26:42.340
Michael Herbert: Then there's referrals for help for people like Rachel on there.
00:26:42.340 --> 00:26:50.020
Michael Herbert: There's instructions for the veterinarians, which includes the Four Steps Plus, the handouts that we have so far.
00:26:50.020 --> 00:26:54.760
Michael Herbert: And then there's a page for people listening to this podcast.
00:26:54.760 --> 00:27:09.580
Michael Herbert: If you've had one of these experiences and your vet didn't warn you about it or didn't instruct you about it, this is a letter to your vet and you can make it as nice as you want or as aggressive as you want, depending on your experience.
00:27:09.580 --> 00:27:12.200
Rita Reimers: You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.
00:27:12.840 --> 00:27:13.520
Michael Herbert: That's true.
00:27:13.520 --> 00:27:14.760
Rita Reimers: I'm just gonna say.
00:27:14.760 --> 00:27:22.540
Michael Herbert: It's mostly the way it's written, it's informative, but it's just a draft and you can use it as you see fit.
00:27:22.540 --> 00:27:24.680
Michael Herbert: So that's what's going on.
00:27:25.140 --> 00:27:31.100
Linda Hall: I posted a social media video about this maybe six months ago, after I got tired of everybody coming to us in this problem.
00:27:31.100 --> 00:27:32.340
Linda Hall: And I was like, I gotta tell people.
00:27:32.560 --> 00:27:38.040
Linda Hall: A couple months later, I posted another one because it's like, this is not reaching enough.
00:27:38.040 --> 00:27:48.960
Linda Hall: And we have gotten to where every session, if you come to us because your cat is pooping out of the box, before we hang up, I'm going to tell you, listen, before you take your cats to the vet, we do this with everyone.
00:27:48.960 --> 00:27:52.860
Linda Hall: It doesn't have to be about that because we're like, save yourself a return trip to us.
00:27:52.920 --> 00:27:54.060
Linda Hall: That's right.
00:27:54.060 --> 00:27:58.640
Rita Reimers: Once you get them together, you don't want them to suddenly break apart because of this.
00:27:58.640 --> 00:28:07.320
Michael Herbert: You know, what's interesting here is that there's actually a lot in this for the veterinarians.
00:28:07.320 --> 00:28:10.360
Michael Herbert: Dogs love to jump in a car and go on an adventure.
00:28:10.360 --> 00:28:15.320
Michael Herbert: Cats, not so much being stuffed in their little prison box and going to the vet.
00:28:15.320 --> 00:28:23.000
Michael Herbert: So if the cats go fear free to the vet and return home fear free, it's not as big of a deal.
00:28:23.020 --> 00:28:34.160
Michael Herbert: I think anybody who has had a feline non-recognition aggression experience, they're going to be less likely to take the cat to the vet.
00:28:34.160 --> 00:28:40.360
Michael Herbert: So if they don't have them, more cat visits to the vet, more business for the vets.
00:28:40.360 --> 00:28:44.180
Rita Reimers: There's a lot of people say, we just always take both cats.
00:28:44.380 --> 00:28:46.760
Rita Reimers: Oh yeah, I can't take 19 cats to the vet at the same time.
00:28:47.400 --> 00:28:49.280
Linda Hall: If you're here, if you're there.
00:28:49.280 --> 00:28:52.880
Linda Hall: And I want it to be said that this is not just for the vet.
00:28:52.880 --> 00:28:54.200
Linda Hall: This is anytime.
00:28:54.200 --> 00:28:59.000
Linda Hall: We've had clients tell us, oh, we always take Fluffy back to my parents to visit.
00:28:59.000 --> 00:29:00.720
Linda Hall: Muffy doesn't like to travel so much.
00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:01.800
Rita Reimers: Why do people do that?
00:29:01.800 --> 00:29:03.900
Linda Hall: We're coming back with a different intent.
00:29:03.900 --> 00:29:04.840
Linda Hall: Groomer.
00:29:04.840 --> 00:29:07.640
Linda Hall: We had a client with a cat boarding.
00:29:07.640 --> 00:29:12.580
Linda Hall: We had a client whose cat went outside, rolled in the grass, came right back in and a fight started.
00:29:12.580 --> 00:29:13.080
Rita Reimers: That was it.
00:29:13.340 --> 00:29:16.860
Linda Hall: I'm wondering if there was some like deer scat on the lawn or something.
00:29:16.860 --> 00:29:20.760
Linda Hall: We were rolling in something, but that's how quickly that scent changed.
00:29:20.760 --> 00:29:22.860
Linda Hall: That's how quick this can happen.
00:29:22.860 --> 00:29:24.140
Linda Hall: You have to bathe one cat.
00:29:24.140 --> 00:29:25.020
Linda Hall: You have to anything.
00:29:25.020 --> 00:29:26.000
Michael Herbert: And it's interesting.
00:29:26.900 --> 00:29:30.640
Michael Herbert: The related thing from it too is redirected aggression.
00:29:30.640 --> 00:29:32.280
Michael Herbert: We live in Arizona.
00:29:32.280 --> 00:29:39.440
Michael Herbert: I looked out my bedroom window and there was a teenage bobcat on our porch.
00:29:40.760 --> 00:29:47.280
Michael Herbert: And then Cortado, the one that was aggressive, the one that didn't go to the vet, was sitting on the bed chittering at him.
00:29:47.280 --> 00:29:49.500
Michael Herbert: So I threw Cortado in the closet.
00:29:49.500 --> 00:29:51.540
Linda Hall: Here, kitty, kitty, kitty, kitty.
00:29:51.540 --> 00:29:55.940
Michael Herbert: All of a sudden, redirect his aggression back on Buddha again.
00:29:55.940 --> 00:29:57.480
Michael Herbert: So, yeah.
00:29:57.480 --> 00:29:58.700
Rita Reimers: Let's talk about that one.
00:29:58.700 --> 00:30:00.340
Rita Reimers: Was the client in Maine?
00:30:00.340 --> 00:30:01.180
Linda Hall: Vermont.
00:30:01.180 --> 00:30:02.380
Linda Hall: I knew exactly what you were.
00:30:02.740 --> 00:30:04.280
Linda Hall: He had this lovely catio.
00:30:04.280 --> 00:30:07.700
Linda Hall: And his cats were best friends for 10 years.
00:30:07.700 --> 00:30:09.600
Linda Hall: And they were out on the catio.
00:30:09.600 --> 00:30:16.880
Linda Hall: And all of a sudden, he heard that awful sound that, yeah, that raises your blood pressure instantly.
00:30:16.880 --> 00:30:19.820
Linda Hall: And he said the two cats came in like a whirling derbush.
00:30:19.820 --> 00:30:21.760
Linda Hall: Like you couldn't tell where one ended.
00:30:21.760 --> 00:30:23.520
Linda Hall: But he said there was pee flying.
00:30:23.520 --> 00:30:24.800
Linda Hall: There was poop flying.
00:30:24.800 --> 00:30:26.240
Linda Hall: It was so bad.
00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:27.480
Linda Hall: He looked out on the catio.
00:30:27.620 --> 00:30:29.040
Linda Hall: There's a bobcat looking at it.
00:30:29.040 --> 00:30:30.140
Linda Hall: What you doing?
00:30:30.140 --> 00:30:34.700
Linda Hall: I said, I just slapped my sister and peed my pants too if I had seen a bobcat.
00:30:34.700 --> 00:30:36.260
Linda Hall: I can relate to this.
00:30:36.260 --> 00:30:50.020
Linda Hall: And then because they got upset and fought each other, cats, my favorite Rita Reimer's quote, everything a cat does is about survival for themselves and the species.
00:30:50.020 --> 00:30:51.400
Linda Hall: And I've tried to debunk it.
00:30:51.400 --> 00:30:52.040
Linda Hall: I cannot.
00:30:53.480 --> 00:30:56.800
Rita Reimers: That's one of the only things we can say always is true.
00:30:56.800 --> 00:31:00.780
Dr. Rachel Geller: No, it's so in quote, cats do things to meet their needs.
00:31:00.780 --> 00:31:01.720
Dr. Rachel Geller: End of story.
00:31:01.720 --> 00:31:05.340
Dr. Rachel Geller: And cats will try to solve a problem as a cat.
00:31:05.340 --> 00:31:06.360
Dr. Rachel Geller: End of story.
00:31:06.360 --> 00:31:06.720
Dr. Rachel Geller: So yeah.
00:31:07.200 --> 00:31:08.180
Linda Hall: It was an accident.
00:31:08.180 --> 00:31:10.620
Linda Hall: I was scared of this cat, but now I've hurt my sibling.
00:31:10.620 --> 00:31:11.680
Linda Hall: My sibling has hurt me.
00:31:11.680 --> 00:31:12.860
Linda Hall: Now I don't trust them again.
00:31:12.860 --> 00:31:15.840
Linda Hall: Going back to like my husband puffing me upside of the head.
00:31:15.840 --> 00:31:22.340
Linda Hall: And even if we worked through it and we had another 20 years of marriage where he never harmed me again, you know that doesn't go away.
00:31:22.340 --> 00:31:24.180
Linda Hall: So let's just avoid it.
00:31:24.180 --> 00:31:26.360
Rita Reimers: Let's avoid it as much as possible, right?
00:31:26.360 --> 00:31:29.080
Rita Reimers: Now you had to put your cats on Prozac, Michael, correct?
00:31:29.080 --> 00:31:30.900
Michael Herbert: Yes, they are in Prozac.
00:31:31.120 --> 00:31:32.620
Michael Herbert: I mean, they are back together.
00:31:32.620 --> 00:31:36.560
Michael Herbert: They're on a very, very small dose of Prozac, but that's no fun.
00:31:36.580 --> 00:31:44.860
Michael Herbert: And, you know, we were given the pill form, which sometimes can be very challenging to get the cats to.
00:31:44.960 --> 00:31:49.780
Rita Reimers: I'm sure a cat that's already upset and acting like a mountain lion, let's just shove a pill down his throat.
00:31:49.780 --> 00:31:50.760
Dr. Rachel Geller: Yeah, yeah.
00:31:50.760 --> 00:31:55.060
Dr. Rachel Geller: I think you're being generous with the, you know, that's, that could mean to the cunt.
00:31:55.060 --> 00:32:03.160
Michael Herbert: Well, I don't understand with the alternatives now, either compounding it or the transdermal bind, why the pill is even still exists.
00:32:03.160 --> 00:32:12.940
Linda Hall: So we've heard from some, well, I tell you, for one thing, my opinion, and we were just talking about this with Steve Dale, cats have always been the redheaded stepchild of our pets.
00:32:12.940 --> 00:32:13.400
Linda Hall: It's true.
00:32:13.820 --> 00:32:17.740
Linda Hall: They're easygoing and they came to live with us and they lived in the barn and then we let them in.
00:32:17.740 --> 00:32:20.400
Linda Hall: And so we didn't put the focus on them that we have on dogs.
00:32:20.400 --> 00:32:22.280
Linda Hall: They're just now starting.
00:32:22.280 --> 00:32:25.380
Linda Hall: There are a lot of great people that are really starting to invest in cats.
00:32:25.380 --> 00:32:27.080
Linda Hall: But I think that's part of it.
00:32:27.080 --> 00:32:30.280
Linda Hall: I think they're, this is what you give, this is the dose period.
00:32:30.280 --> 00:32:32.000
Linda Hall: We did have one vet say-
00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:33.680
Linda Hall: My vet, my personal vet.
00:32:33.680 --> 00:32:39.220
Linda Hall: Yes, they don't usually carry the transdermal and it can be more expensive, but some actually are cheaper and chewy.
00:32:39.220 --> 00:32:42.700
Rita Reimers: Well, even if it is more expensive, you give your client the choice, right?
00:32:42.740 --> 00:32:44.660
Linda Hall: Give me the choice.
00:32:44.660 --> 00:32:45.220
Dr. Rachel Geller: Right.
00:32:45.220 --> 00:32:51.240
Dr. Rachel Geller: And even if it is more expensive, but in real life, it's not because you waste so many pills, try to pill the cat on your own.
00:32:51.240 --> 00:32:53.860
Dr. Rachel Geller: So in the long run, I end up being a dog.
00:32:53.860 --> 00:32:55.000
Linda Hall: Exactly.
00:32:55.000 --> 00:33:03.360
Rita Reimers: My book, Sadie's Heart, it's mostly about how I needed to give her medicine and I had to beg and scream and advocate to get the transdermal gel.
00:33:03.360 --> 00:33:05.540
Rita Reimers: You've got to advocate for your cats.
00:33:05.540 --> 00:33:09.280
Linda Hall: She's got a cat with a heart condition and she's told don't upset her.
00:33:09.280 --> 00:33:13.260
Linda Hall: But hey, shove this pill down her gullet couple times a day, right?
00:33:13.260 --> 00:33:16.280
Linda Hall: And the cat was running from her.
00:33:16.280 --> 00:33:17.700
Rita Reimers: Not at all!
00:33:17.700 --> 00:33:19.820
Linda Hall: Not working to keep this cat calm, people.
00:33:19.820 --> 00:33:20.760
Linda Hall: Yes, exactly.
00:33:20.760 --> 00:33:23.200
Dr. Rachel Geller: That won't be stressful at all, yeah.
00:33:23.200 --> 00:33:30.220
Dr. Rachel Geller: You know, some of these compounders, when they compound it into a tasty treat, I mean, have you ever looked at the menus of these treats?
00:33:30.220 --> 00:33:35.120
Dr. Rachel Geller: It's like chicken and shrimp, you know, fricassee and turkey.
00:33:35.320 --> 00:33:36.700
Dr. Rachel Geller: Yeah.
00:33:36.700 --> 00:33:37.880
Michael Herbert: This is how I've thought of it.
00:33:37.880 --> 00:33:49.540
Michael Herbert: If you went to the doctor and because the doctor didn't give you a simple instruction and you ended up on Prozac for nine months, you think you'd be a little upset?
00:33:49.540 --> 00:33:52.500
Rita Reimers: Well, I think there might be a lawsuit involved there, yeah.
00:33:52.500 --> 00:33:52.820
Linda Hall: Right?
00:33:52.820 --> 00:33:53.260
Linda Hall: Yes.
00:33:53.260 --> 00:33:56.800
Linda Hall: I would go after my doctor and say you did not give me proper discharge instructions.
00:33:56.800 --> 00:33:57.800
Linda Hall: You're absolutely right.
00:33:58.060 --> 00:34:00.440
Linda Hall: And I want to be clear, we love our vets.
00:34:00.440 --> 00:34:02.020
Linda Hall: Our vets are overworked.
00:34:02.020 --> 00:34:05.260
Linda Hall: There are amazing million vets out there.
00:34:05.260 --> 00:34:08.220
Linda Hall: There are a few not so amazing ones, but that happens with everything, right?
00:34:08.320 --> 00:34:11.520
Linda Hall: You can't have any grouping of people without a few rotten ones.
00:34:11.520 --> 00:34:11.960
Dr. Rachel Geller: That's right.
00:34:11.960 --> 00:34:16.180
Dr. Rachel Geller: 50% of all veterinarians graduate at the bottom of their class.
00:34:16.180 --> 00:34:17.960
Rita Reimers: That's a good way to think about it, Dr.
00:34:17.980 --> 00:34:19.020
Rita Reimers: Rachel.
00:34:19.020 --> 00:34:22.800
Rita Reimers: I never really thought about it like that, but that's alarming.
00:34:22.840 --> 00:34:31.560
Linda Hall: And if as many of them are, they are more dog people who have learned about how to take care of cats, they're not thinking about the nightmare of giving a pill to a cat.
00:34:31.560 --> 00:34:36.420
Rita Reimers: I had a vet that was scared of my cat, who was very mild meat, sweet cat.
00:34:37.020 --> 00:34:41.840
Rita Reimers: Any time she'd open her mouth, he'd be like, oh, oh, right, he's not my vet anymore, no.
00:34:41.840 --> 00:34:56.840
Michael Herbert: So there's already some really positive things happening with this, because when all of our chaos occurred in December, and I mean, it was literal chaos.
00:34:56.840 --> 00:35:02.220
Rita Reimers: When you're tearing your own hair out and you're crying thinking, do I have to give up one of my cats, right, Michael?
00:35:02.220 --> 00:35:05.320
Michael Herbert: Yeah, we went through that and we adore these cats.
00:35:05.500 --> 00:35:11.040
Michael Herbert: And it's just my wife and I, and, you know, they're way easier than the kids, even with this.
00:35:11.040 --> 00:35:12.200
Rita Reimers: Yeah, they're my kids too.
00:35:12.200 --> 00:35:14.500
Linda Hall: Amen.
00:35:14.500 --> 00:35:23.340
Michael Herbert: But we were referred to this woman at anticruelty.org out of Chicago, and they have already made changes based on Buddha and Quartados.
00:35:23.340 --> 00:35:23.940
Rita Reimers: That's awesome.
00:35:23.940 --> 00:35:33.100
Michael Herbert: In a case to both in the way their vets are going to give instructions and in their adoption papers, they're going to change their adoption papers.
00:35:33.300 --> 00:35:38.140
Michael Herbert: And this situation did not happen with our normal vet.
00:35:38.140 --> 00:35:40.420
Michael Herbert: It happened, they were not available.
00:35:40.420 --> 00:35:45.540
Michael Herbert: It was a Friday, and we took Buddha to this other vet.
00:35:45.540 --> 00:35:50.260
Michael Herbert: And so, but our normal vet, who's a cat only vet, they only see cats.
00:35:50.820 --> 00:35:58.180
Michael Herbert: They still though, even though they only see cats, they weren't giving sufficient instructions in their own mind.
00:35:58.180 --> 00:36:01.720
Michael Herbert: And, you know, they've been great and they were really supportive of us.
00:36:02.220 --> 00:36:05.600
Michael Herbert: They are now changing and adopting changes too.
00:36:05.600 --> 00:36:09.940
Michael Herbert: So it might, you know, I hope it doesn't take one vet at a time.
00:36:09.940 --> 00:36:13.660
Michael Herbert: I'd like to get the big pet retailers to do stories on it.
00:36:13.660 --> 00:36:22.440
Michael Herbert: And I'm working on the Maine Society to do articles on it for education.
00:36:22.440 --> 00:36:35.800
Michael Herbert: And, you know, if we can get both people educated and vets educated, maybe this problem goes away and there's much happier households, much calmer households.
00:36:35.800 --> 00:36:36.780
Rita Reimers: We can only hope.
00:36:36.780 --> 00:36:37.980
Rita Reimers: Shouldn't this be?
00:36:37.980 --> 00:36:40.580
Dr. Rachel Geller: That's why I suggested you guys Cat Behavior Alliance.
00:36:40.580 --> 00:36:50.060
Dr. Rachel Geller: That was my first thought when Michael came to me, is that you guys have such a wide reach, you reach a lot of people, you have it in social media, you have a podcast forum, a YouTube forum.
00:36:50.060 --> 00:36:52.260
Dr. Rachel Geller: Yeah, you guys are really out there.
00:36:52.260 --> 00:36:55.300
Dr. Rachel Geller: And so I thought this is, I need to make this introduction.
00:36:55.300 --> 00:36:55.440
Michael Herbert: Yeah.
00:36:55.720 --> 00:36:57.740
Rita Reimers: You'll be including our website and our write ups now.
00:36:57.740 --> 00:37:01.340
Rita Reimers: But don't you think this should be also part of the fear free education?
00:37:01.340 --> 00:37:07.580
Rita Reimers: To be fear free certified, really you should know how to give proper instruction for a multi-cat household.
00:37:07.580 --> 00:37:15.140
Michael Herbert: You know, so fear free actually had materials available when a Buddha went to the vet on November 30th.
00:37:15.140 --> 00:37:20.020
Michael Herbert: Now this vet we went to is in fear free and it's, you know, it's a dog and cat facility.
00:37:20.020 --> 00:37:26.980
Michael Herbert: But even the fear free vets I've learned are necessarily aware that this handout is there and that they should be giving the instruction.
00:37:26.980 --> 00:37:30.920
Michael Herbert: So we need to go back to fear free as well.
00:37:30.920 --> 00:37:48.240
Michael Herbert: And, you know, I again, in my wish list of things for the coming holidays would be that fear free would listen to us and send something out to the free certified people saying, we have materials if you're not linking them, please do.
00:37:48.240 --> 00:37:49.460
Michael Herbert: Is it really essential?
00:37:49.580 --> 00:37:55.840
Michael Herbert: They actually have materials for both before you take the cat to the vet, and when you take them home.
00:37:55.840 --> 00:37:59.300
Michael Herbert: So like before you go to the vet, you could spray it with Feliway.
00:37:59.300 --> 00:38:04.560
Michael Herbert: If you if it's really bad, you can maybe give them gabapentin, you know, do you temporary?
00:38:04.580 --> 00:38:08.160
Rita Reimers: Or some other such, you know, type of relaxing.
00:38:08.160 --> 00:38:09.500
Linda Hall: Yeah, I have to thank you.
00:38:09.500 --> 00:38:22.140
Linda Hall: I'll tell you, Michael, I'm impressed because how many people like, I'm just one person and you know, and that's why I kept doing internet searches to figure out what organization you're with, what your education is to find it.
00:38:22.140 --> 00:38:23.860
Linda Hall: I'm like, he's nowhere.
00:38:23.860 --> 00:38:27.000
Linda Hall: I've never come into a podcast and gone, all right, what's your deal?
00:38:27.000 --> 00:38:36.800
Linda Hall: You are a human being who experienced a problem and set out to change it for everybody else and that is so exciting and speaks of the power of one, right?
00:38:36.800 --> 00:38:37.660
Rita Reimers: Definitely.
00:38:37.920 --> 00:38:39.060
Rita Reimers: This is a big problem.
00:38:39.060 --> 00:38:40.800
Rita Reimers: And, you know, I was surprised.
00:38:40.800 --> 00:38:43.320
Rita Reimers: Well, I was sort of surprised but sort of not to hear Dr.
00:38:43.320 --> 00:38:45.840
Rita Reimers: Rachel also gets at least one a week like this.
00:38:45.980 --> 00:38:49.500
Rita Reimers: It's a very common thing to happen and totally preventable.
00:38:49.500 --> 00:38:50.300
Rita Reimers: At least.
00:38:50.300 --> 00:38:51.440
Rita Reimers: Any last words of wisdom?
00:38:51.440 --> 00:38:54.920
Rita Reimers: I hate that we have to wrap up shortly, but both Michael and Dr.
00:38:54.920 --> 00:38:58.300
Rita Reimers: Rachel, I'd love to give you both the last words before we...
00:38:58.300 --> 00:39:00.840
Michael Herbert: So I guess I'm going to say this.
00:39:00.840 --> 00:39:11.520
Michael Herbert: I'm going to go in front of the Arizona Veterinary Board and try and get them to tell vets that they need to make this instruction.
00:39:11.520 --> 00:39:17.880
Michael Herbert: So if anyone listening to this wants to help with that, we'll try and include an address.
00:39:17.880 --> 00:39:29.800
Michael Herbert: And feel free to write a letter with your story and just make the point that vets really need to be giving this instruction because the purpose of the board is to protect the public.
00:39:29.800 --> 00:39:33.920
Michael Herbert: So if they want to act in the public's interest, they can hear from the public.
00:39:33.920 --> 00:39:35.180
Michael Herbert: It's perfectly fine.
00:39:35.180 --> 00:39:38.980
Michael Herbert: So I have a feeling this will be going on until...
00:39:38.980 --> 00:39:42.340
Michael Herbert: I'm going to guess into November of 2024.
00:39:42.780 --> 00:39:48.380
Michael Herbert: So if you're listening before then, and you want to contribute, we'll put that out there.
00:39:48.380 --> 00:39:50.720
Michael Herbert: Hopefully, we can put that out there with the...
00:39:50.720 --> 00:39:52.320
Rita Reimers: Say your website address again.
00:39:52.320 --> 00:39:57.140
Michael Herbert: The website address is Feline Non-Recognition Aggression.
00:39:57.140 --> 00:39:59.340
Michael Herbert: All one word, no hyphens.
00:39:59.340 --> 00:40:01.520
Michael Herbert: And I'll send that to you.
00:40:01.520 --> 00:40:02.130
Linda Hall: You can...
00:40:02.130 --> 00:40:02.130
Linda Hall: .
00:40:02.130 --> 00:40:02.560
Linda Hall: com.
00:40:02.560 --> 00:40:05.920
Rita Reimers: We'll be adding that to our website as well.
00:40:05.920 --> 00:40:06.240
Rita Reimers: Dr.
00:40:06.240 --> 00:40:08.340
Rita Reimers: Rachel, any last words of wisdom for us?
00:40:08.760 --> 00:40:16.320
Dr. Rachel Geller: I'm just very excited that, you know, somebody came forward and is advancing this mission, this cause, because it really is a big problem.
00:40:16.320 --> 00:40:21.980
Dr. Rachel Geller: And, you know, I think a lot of times it's a grassroots effort that does enact change.
00:40:21.980 --> 00:40:26.980
Dr. Rachel Geller: And within that grassroots, we might need to be living like a weed, but we should all push it forward.
00:40:26.980 --> 00:40:28.280
Rita Reimers: This is such a big tough road.
00:40:28.280 --> 00:40:29.600
Linda Hall: Thank you for coming.
00:40:29.600 --> 00:40:32.800
Linda Hall: Like I said, this is one of those things that eats it right.
00:40:32.800 --> 00:40:36.500
Linda Hall: Rita and I, every time we get another person, it's like, how do we stop this?
00:40:36.800 --> 00:40:37.560
Rita Reimers: Very common.
00:40:37.560 --> 00:40:39.640
Rita Reimers: Linda, any last thoughts you want to add?
00:40:39.640 --> 00:40:40.380
Dr. Rachel Geller: Yeah.
00:40:40.460 --> 00:40:41.740
Linda Hall: I think I said it all.
00:40:41.800 --> 00:40:43.420
Rita Reimers: I think you did.
00:40:43.420 --> 00:40:45.620
Rita Reimers: I just want to thank everybody for being part of this.
00:40:45.620 --> 00:40:50.040
Rita Reimers: Let's hope we're starting a big movement here, because this is necessary.
00:40:50.240 --> 00:40:59.700
Rita Reimers: It's something that's preventable, and we need to stop cats from ending up in shelters just from lack of information for something that's so easily preventable.
00:40:59.700 --> 00:41:00.540
Rita Reimers: Thank you all for being here.
00:41:00.540 --> 00:41:04.900
Rita Reimers: I hope you both come back, especially as things move forward and you start making a bigger dent.
00:41:05.380 --> 00:41:08.460
Rita Reimers: We definitely want to hear some follow-up on your progress.
00:41:08.460 --> 00:41:15.760
Rita Reimers: I have to of course thank Mark Winter for giving us this opportunity on Pet Life Radio so we can bring topics like this out to everyone.
00:41:15.760 --> 00:41:22.380
Rita Reimers: And of course, don't forget, it's not just Saturday, every single day is Caturday.
00:41:22.380 --> 00:41:23.360
Rita Reimers: We'll see you next time.
00:41:24.180 --> 00:41:27.460
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